"Soon to be Presa Owner Help"

[Nori]

I have a ton a questions before I bring home my puppy -I’m only asking a few tonight.

(1) Should I continue to feed my puppy the same food the breeder is feeding him- If not what should I feed him (brand) - The breeder feeds him once a day- How many time should I feed him ?

(2) Crate Size -Should I just buy a XL Crate? I was told to get a size the fits him so I can crate train him faster (I live in a townhouse)

(3) Leash what type what size ?

[presagirls]

I am very surprised that the breeder is feeding a puppy once a day......I would recommend 3x a day until the pup is 6 months and then twice a day for the rest of the pup's life.

Do your research on the food and you decide what food you want to feed and what you can afford to feed your pup.......I will enclosed a link to Whole Dog Journal's recommended kibbles (bottom of column on the left) unless you plan on feeding raw......

http://presagirls.tripod.com/id2.html

I would recommend an XL wire crate that comes with a divider inside so you can block off most of the crate when the pup is young and when pup is potty trained take the divider out.

Leash is an individual preference; I would recommend a good quality leather leash (easier on the hands than nylon) and you will go through many collars as the pup grows.....I like the nylon martingale collars when they are young and then leather when closer to full grown.

Who are you getting your pup from??

[Nori]

Shogun Kennels: http://www.theoriginalshogunkennels.com/

I’ve got alot of good feed back from the breeder - Just wanted a second opinion on the feeding, I dont want to over feed the puppy - I was thinking about Eukaneuba -Not good a choice from your site - I really want the best my puppy
Raw sounds better then any dog food - How can I afford the food - I checked the links on your site, I live in Md - Do they any offer a plan and do they supply the food -

What brand would you highy recommend ?

[presagirls]

Wow, no mention of any health checks on Shogun......have the parents been OFA'd or pennhipped at a minimum??

There are lots of brands recommended by Whole Dog Journal; Eukaneuba is not one of them........check out ingredients and see what you feel is a good food......btw raw is not expensive; usually cheaper than a good quality kibble..........

[Kiroman]

What made you choose this kennel? Granted many folks do not put everything on their website, but there is much that is unanswered here...

As what Cathy said, what have they done to support the claims that they have made on their website? Have you actually "SEEN" proof of xrays, not just "ya we had them done"?

[yy1207]

seriously, i really hope u still have time to switch to another breeder.

[genevieve]

I agree, I am very concerned for the long term health of your puppy (and your happiness) with the lack of hip and elbow testing. Also about the future temperament as neither of these dogs have anything in the way of OB or working titles.

It makes me sad to see "breeders" like this duping newcomers to the breed.

Genevieve

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Hope you get a solid dog with good temprament and find a good trainer.

A trainer that is smart enough to know that aggression is not the same as dominance, and understands that a dog that challenges you is a good dog to train. Whether it be over food, wanting to be on the bed, or something else, dominant behavior can express itself in many ways. Some people confuse aggression with dominance and end up bailing on a dog because they are ignorant of dog behaviour and lack substance themselves, some here have experience with that. Of course you may get a totally docile, submissive dog and depending on your lifestyle, situation and what you want a dog for, that may be for the best.

[pittbull22]

Shogun Kennels: http://www.theoriginalshogunkennels.com/

I’ve got alot of good feed back from the breeder - Just wanted a second opinion on the feeding, I dont want to over feed the puppy - I was thinking about Eukaneuba -Not good a choice from your site - I really want the best my puppy
Raw sounds better then any dog food - How can I afford the food - I checked the links on your site, I live in Md - Do they any offer a plan and do they supply the food -

What brand would you highy recommend ?

What part of Md do you live in? On yahoo groups there is a raw meat co-op named natural feeding, where I have gotten a package or two. Its like you place an order on the 20th and pay on the 20th and you may pick it up on the 24th or something. The deliveries are about a month a part, so a deep freezer would come in handy to so that you may order a full months worth of food!

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Good post PittBull. Your someone that realizes people are going to do what they are going to do and all the negative elite critisism in the world is not going to help or change most peoples minds. So you help where you can.

[genevieve]

Good post PittBull. Your someone that realizes people are going to do what they are going to do and all the negative elite critisism in the world is not going to help or change most peoples minds. So you help where you can.

Nothing sadder than someone that has given up on the hope of bettering the breed and educating the unknowing.

Genevieve

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Who is giving up? Some approaches have to be recognized as simply vanity and unproductive.

Someone posts about getting a dog, they immediately start being bashed. Not a good way to educate and change peoples mindset.

[Detroit Red]

I have a pup as well as three of my friends have pups from this kennel. That being said, I'm the only one that hasn't had the hips tested on my male. Great prey drives and good hips that Ive seen,knows the breed very well and knows what to look for when testing keeping dogs. I've gotten presa's from quite a few different breeder's and I'll say he's producing some of the best presa's out there with balanced temp and outstanding drives and health to match.I know a few breeders out there that do post the hip records on their sites and are breeding absolute bullshit, but I won't fan the fire, not you oakleaf I love your dogs but you do know some of them. If you want to call me P.M. me,anyone:)

[Detroit Red]

By the way, titles don't mean squat;) Sure if you want something to brag about, I wouldn't stop anyone from obtaining a title, It helps to sell dogs for a lot of people out here too lazy to work.The breeder trained one of my dogs and his dogs are definitely all go and not for show. Too many times we these breeders who have tt- cgc behind their dogs that are no better than the mutts we find on the side of an alley. But to each his/her own tastes and preferences, but my dogs do what they were meant to and are legit

[presagirls]

So, Detroit Red, are you saying that Shogun's breeding stock has been hip CERTIFIED at a minimum????

I think it is good to "get the questions" out there.....the more people see the more educated they become (hopefully!)......and less people will buy from untested (hip & temperament) stock!!!! I don't see where anyone was bashed; just questioned......:confused:

[Detroit Red]

I'm saying the pups have been tested, never asked if parents were tested when I purchased as I'd rather have the pup tested as that', as that's the one I'm the most concerned with. Not knocking parents getting tested because it does help the breed in a way if the breeders do actually stick to their guns when they sell/place pups, But the end result will always be a roll of the dice even with the breeders like yourself/shogun that try to advance the breed.I know at least four commonly used studs out there that are hd free but come from dogs with hd in the lines. Not actually a newbie like the date implies and I have a profound overstanding of what a presa and dog in general should do or it wouldn't be on my yard.

[Detroit Red]

Never said you bashed anyone, Dennis was even great today:):. Like I said love your dogs and what you're doing with them. Just speaking what I've experienced and still learning, even from the breeder we're speaking of. Call the breeder if you have an interest in what/how he's producing as I can only speak of what I know.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Dennis was even great today:):.

I'm great everyday, lesser minds have problems recognizing that all the time. The more times you recognize I am great the more intelligent you are. :D:eek:

[Detroit Red]

thanks, i'll keep that in mind though i have a pretty solid mind and education, just glad to see informative posts and not a lot of barking from most

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

There was a ranch hand named Bob. He worked on a Dude Ranch. One of the clientle one week was a V.P. of a major company, named Rick. Now Rick took notice of Bob and saw Bob could do a lot of things, string fence, repair fence, work on trucks etc.. One day he saw Bob pull up a broken submersible well pump, spread it out on a blanket, fix it and drop it back down the hole. Rick spoke to Bob one day before he left and he said "you know Bob, I have watched you and your amazing, you can do so many things, no insult, but I know you only have a 3rd grade education. just how do you do it?

Bob, looked up at him with a half irritated/half amused/part humorous/part serious look and simply said... "One think I learned along time ago is that if your not Educated, you sure as hell better KNOW something"

[jdunson]

Well where do I begin... I really have no problem with anyone encouraging people to do their research. I have been a firm advocate for years of doing that even when I refer people to some of your sites. I have been coming to this board since '97 and have been researching this breed even before that. I know how things are always percieved here and if I or my partner had anything to hide I would not promote this site. With all that being said, I have and will always stand by my dogs 100%. I guarantee, both by word and in contract, the health and temp of my dogs. We choose not to put hip scores or title info because history has taught that many of those who do, do so justify ridculous pricing, constant breedings, and/or questionable ped's. (I am not speaking of anyone person in particular) I do consider myself one who goes to great length to advance this breed. But truthfully, my biggest argument and why I feel that posting parents hip scores is only one part, is because without knowledge of full history of a particular dog, you are really misleading individuals. The discussion has been commented on before as to what about grands, great grands, etc. One could have issues in their lines that may pop up later on but because the parents showed good everything is alright? Hardly. That's not just with health issues; temp., drive, workability all can fall under that.

The bottom line is I stand behind everything I do, say, and practice when it comes to my dogs and this breed.

"Nori" again welcome to the presa community. You are in the right place to find out why we are so passionate about this breed.

[Detroit Red]

U.C Berkeley would have made you a welcome addition with the shrums you've been consuming to come up with joke you just posted:):), but wasn't attacking you earlier and can trade punches with the best of them Dennis:eek:

[jdunson]

There was a ranch hand named Bob. He worked on a Dude Ranch. One of the clientle one week was a V.P. of a major company, named Rick. Now Rick took notice of Bob and saw Bob could do a lot of things, string fence, repair fence, work on trucks etc.. One day he saw Bob pull up a broken submersible well pump, spread it out on a blanket, fix it and drop it back down the hole. Rick spoke to Bob one day before he left and he said "you know Bob, I have watched you and your amazing, you can do so many things, no insult, but I know you only have a 3rd grade education. just how do you do it?

Bob, looked up at him with a half irritated/half amused/part humorous/part serious look and simply said... "One think I learned along time ago is that if your not Educated, you sure as hell better KNOW something"

Love it:D:D:D. Without humor we'd be...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Detriot, I never once thought you were attacking me.

As for Berkeley and shrums.. well I heard that story at a COWBOY Prose and Poetry event in Elko Nevada, an old grizzled Cowboy told that story and it was quite entertaining. So from what you said, a liberal drug head college like Berkeley has a place for creative Red Neck Cowboy Ranch hands.. Cool...

There is a considerable difference between simply being educated and knowing something. I was an Electronic Engineering assistant in my younger days, we hired some guy out of College with a EE degree, highly educated, but could not design and build something if his life depended on it, but he sure could spout off equations and theory...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

How about simply welcoming new people and not gang posting them, with interrogating questions.. where did you get the dog, were the parents tested... all with somewhat negative intent....etc.. if they already have a dog, its all a mute point, if they have decided to get a dog from a given kennel, it is a mute point, how about educating over time,, Graciously. :)

Dominque a nique a nique had the right idea.

[pittbull22]

Nothing sadder than someone that has given up on the hope of bettering the breed and educating the unknowing.

Genevieve

I dont believe no one has given up on educationg the unknowing, I think people are trying another approach. As anyone can use the search feature and find post that always start out this way. "Im lookin into getting a presa" or "I just bought a new presa pup", then here comes the angry mob with its pitch fork and torches to burn this strangers village. "what kennel?", "Who are the parents?", "what were their hip scores", etc etc which automatically sends a honest person in their defense drive, which we all should know a lil something about. Then we as a community that want to save something that is so precious and dear to our heart, lose what could have been a valuable member of the community. Now they are forced to go to other boards that believe Presas should be 170lbs monsters or presa's are pit bulls on steroids, go to the AKC and see that blue, gold and all these other non acceptable colors are.

When in school when you learned to add in elementary school the teacher did not make you feel bad for coming into the school on the first day not knowing 2 +2=4, he worked with you, in a way that he thought you would more receptive to the information that he was given. Now you can answer 2+2=4 in your sleep. Genevieve this is not an attack ony ou what so ever, Im grateful for all the info you have provided this board, and me specifically. I also want to say that if half the people on here were presa's boy many would be euthanized because some are just plain vicious, when it comes to somethings!:D Just joking!

[genevieve]

Attacking would have been far more personal...

I personally feel that any post that is let slide without providing information on how to select a dog of this breed in a manner that is informed on health, temperament, etc is just as bad as sending to someone to a "breeder" that doesn't test.

If we don't ask about hips, temperament, etc, then we become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Back on the original topic:

I recommend pups be fed three times a day until they are six months old to my clients. I used Eukanuba for a long time with good results. There are far worse foods out there. Personally I use Innova products now and have had excellent results.

Also like wire mesh crates with a divider, kong with food/ peanut butter, marrow bone, etc when putting pup in crate- no food or water or they will have accidents.

Genevieve

[Detroit Red]

I would not use the E.V.O brands on pups until at least 18 months as I've seen a few presa's that started as pups at 12 weeks on it and are on the large side like and didn't get that slow development that they needed.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

If we don't ask about hips, temperament, etc, then we become part of the problem and not part of the solution.How doe questions on a message board solve anything?

Thats the same impotent mind set that believes passing laws on morality, makes people moral. Only each individual can choose to take their own actions and choices to a higher level. 20 people grilling them right after they post is only going to drive them away and entrench them in their decision.

Pitbull worded it well. Not sure why it is so hard to understand.

If you want to educate and lift up people to a better way of thinking and acting, then establish credibility with them as human beings first, easier to take advice from people you know and have come to trust, than strangers that gang up on you after your first post. Id think women would understand that better than men.

[genevieve]

I would not use the E.V.O brands on pups until at least 18 months as I've seen a few presa's that started as pups at 12 weeks on it and are on the large side like and didn't get that slow development that they needed.

Innova makes two lines of foods, one is EVO which is grain free and too high in protein for pups.

http://www.naturapet.com/brands/evo.asp

The other is their line that does contain grain, but is an excellent food overall. They have puppy, adult, sr, etc formulas.

http://www.naturapet.com/brands/innova.asp

Genevieve

[Nori]

Presagirls, yy102 ,Genevieve-
I found the breeder at hoobly.com – I called several breeders – They were the only ones the returned my calls or responded to my emails from that site – I was recommended by a good friend who purched a puppy from a breeder on Hoobly– I ask about the shots not x-rays he stated that my puppy was APRI recognitized - I will inquire about OFA’d and being pennhipped – good questions – Thanks

Kiroman –I like that response "ya we had them done"? – Hit the floor on that one – I’m hoping that a everything works out.

yy102 – I going to stick with the breeder.

Pittbull22
I joined that group last night – information from Presagirls site -Thanks for that tip
They sent me link www.vhcdoc.com – requesting information on prices – Pittbull who did you buy your food from – Are you located in Md ?

SteelFistVelvetGlove – My track is to find a good trainer Can anyone recommend a good trainer near Columbia Md?

[genevieve]

Nori,

Good to see you survived, and welcome to the party :D.

We may all want to kill each other most of the time, but are united by a fierce devotion to our beloved breed.

How far are you willing to drive for training? Are you looking for a performance dog trainer or just basic training?

Genevieve

[Nori]

I would like to eventually move into protection training – I was viewing a site that showed you starting out with basic obedience training first – You guys are the guru – I need all the information I can get

I can travel about 100 miles from my location.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I wish I knew a trainer to refer you too. Very good training can make all the difference in the world, when it comes to protection. I would like to recommend getting an education about different types of training and learn about defensive training and avoid it at all costs. It is an old school mindset with molosser breeds that I don't recommend. Rare is the trainer and helper that reads and understands a dog, puts the right amount of pressure and builds a dogs confidence. Your getting a puppy so that will give you some time to learn and talk to as many experienced people as possible. Even if your dog does not end up a "monster" :rolleyes:. You will have a much more livable confident dog with good training. I would recommend getting some of the Leerburg videos http://leerburg.com/ http://leerburg.com/120.htm puppy DVDs, perhaps a little pricey, but your making a big investment in the first place.

[genevieve]

I train with an excellent Sch group in NJ. It would be about 110 miles from you according to Google Maps (I travel 90 miles to get there myself).

When you get your pup if you decide you are interested in having him/ her evaluated drop me a PM.

Genevieve

[pittbull22]

www.vhcdoc.com[/url] – requesting information on prices – Pittbull who did you buy your food from – Are you located in Md ?



CAnt remember the exact person will lokk on my email to see, secondly Im in DC, last but not not least go to www.k9koncepts.com and get the number, the owner of the place is name Bill but the trainers are Roland ( Baltimore police trainer and retired Baltimore police) and James ( psa certified decoy) and their really good I trained my girl there and no problems since with her. Its in Baltimore and is worth the drive!

[Nori]

Nice clean site -I guess I 'll start with the basic first - Obedience -
What age should I start with protection training -I know that once I decide on what training -The trainers can inform me on the age to start protection training - Just trying to get an Idea of the age.

[Nori]

SteelFistVelvetGlove- I'll check out the videos

genevieve - I'll keep you posted - I'll look into the site pitbull sent since it's near my home - If it doesnt work out -I'll contact you.

[pittbull22]

I believe it'll definitley work! Ill be out the this Saturday with my boy and girl. Im gonna take my girl just so they can see how she's doing and my boy for an evaluation so to speak, and pick up some extreme athlete dog food. The owner bill will give you a free demo of what your fog can be like with the right amount of training, and Roland and James are superb. They both have experience with training many dogs, they will train your presa like a presa as for other trainers that I spoke with that have experience wit mal's, sheps or other breeds that try to train presas like a mal or shep or rotti. They're actually good people hope it works out for you as well as it did for me. PP training, me personally I dont believe there is an age to start, you have to read your dog to know when its time. I dont think you can ever start to late, but starting to early just might damage the dog!(regarding PP training)

[genevieve]

A good foundation can be started at any time. Building good habits from the very beginning will be much better than correcting training mistakes further down the line.

Genevieve

[cawkazn]

Hope you get a solid dog with good temprament and find a good trainer.

A trainer that is smart enough to know that aggression is not the same as dominance, and understands that a dog that challenges you is a good dog to train. Whether it be over food, wanting to be on the bed, or something else, dominant behavior can express itself in many ways. Some people confuse aggression with dominance and end up bailing on a dog because they are ignorant of dog behaviour and lack substance themselves, some here have experience with that. Of course you may get a totally docile, submissive dog and depending on your lifestyle, situation and what you want a dog for, that may be for the best.



can you elaborate on this?

A trainer that is smart enough to know that aggression is not the same as dominance, and understands that a dog that challenges you is a good dog to train.

i think i get the dominance and aggression part, like for example a dominant dog may challenge you, but if you put him in his place, he would not. where as an aggressive dog, even put in his place may still act agressive with you. right?

why is a dog that challenges you a good dog to train vs one that does not?

ps. dont know if it sounds like im question you, which im not, im just asking questions to learn.

[Detroit Red]

I believe Steelfist is saying a dog, regardless of breed, is better when standing ground rather than a dog that prefers to flee which is like a coward that will submit to anyone

[mummidad]

I believe Steelfist is saying a dog, regardless of breed, is better when standing ground rather than a dog that prefers to flee which is like a coward that will submit to anyone
Who ever said what, it couldent be more true.
By the way this is the best thread i have seen for a long time.
Wery constructive and helpfull.

[jdunson]

A good foundation can be started at any time. Building good habits from the very beginning will be much better than correcting training mistakes further down the line.

Genevieve

some may look at that as just a simple concept but it holds unmeasurable value.