Earthling video, sad and distrubing !

[ISAPRESA]

I came across a very interesteing docu/movie a little while back that opened my eyes, I thought I would share it with those who have not seen it.

For those of you who can't handle disturbing graphic content and seeing animal brutality I would not advise watching this although at the same time I would

its 1.5 hours long

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967

[presasrus]

It's disturbing, but it's the world we live in. If anyone so much as spit on my animals just be sure to put a file in the cake you send me...cause I wouldn't be a free man for long.

[kaka]

what better of the human race can we expect,very educational documentry,whatchd all of it ,im sure i saw Slamm on the bit about roedo;)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

what better of the human race can we expectExpectation would bring disappointment.

As a race we are a rather insiduious disease upon this planet. Ignorance and a lack of understanding prevail, mentalities beyond idiocy, hellish, twisted, the word "evil" and any word becomes inadequate. If we are doing it we call it "Colonialism and Manifest Destiny" if someone else is doing it we call it "Terrorism and Religious Fanaticism" Our ability to rationalize and spin our behavior to justify our evil, selfish acts is particularly hideous. Our putting a thin veneer of some connvenient morality over a selfish cause the epitome of hypocrisy. I am glad I watched the video, I have known of such things for a long time, anyone read "Animal Farm?" ... but showing what was shown in a 1.5 hour video was particularly awakening. Makes one want to be living away from everything else, on enough land to let your dogs run free, eat from what one can grow or pick and avoid the rest of the world and it's human lemmings helll bent for destroying themselves and everything around them.

Video was very sobering and very good. Makes one want to do better by his/her dogs and other people who are friends.

[kaka]

well said Dennis my vote with you on this one............

[ISAPRESA]

the free viewing of Earthlings movie has been removed from the internet because it is up for an academy award. Here is the website if you wanna check the film http://www.earthlings.com

[slamm]

This is one of those deals that its probably best if I don't open my mouth, LOL.

Weird how when one of your precious dogs kills somethings nobody gets up in arms about the "pain and suffering" of the prey or when a couple hyena's gets an antelope fawn, I'm sure there is some pain involved there, but that is okay because that is "nature" at work, but when "mankind" kills prey to feed thousands and millions of people somehow the same laws don't apply. Somehow at that point we are all suppose to eat watermelons and mushrooms.

Videos like this do nothing but play on the heart strings of those that don't have much if any knowledge or experience on the complete cycles of life at many different levels.

The discussion of this over the net is at best .... not very good.

Gotta go,

Sam

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

To compare animals with humans and to try to overlay human ethics and morals on animals, or try to overly a lack of morals and ethics of animals on humans is a very amiss in my opinion.

Animals are much more instinctual with no higher brain functions that comprehend ethics and morality to govern/regulate/inhibit instincts.

I do not believe from a Spiritual standpoint animals have the same responsibilities as humans given their lack of capability to even comprehend morality and ethics.

Jewish principles have rules about kosher slaughter that minimize pain, Animals have can have no comprehension of mercy, we do, and our increased abilities have increased responsibilities. "To whom much is given, much is required."

[ISAPRESA]

well said SFVG !

I don't think slamm seen the part on puppy mills and all those puppies getting shoveled into the gas chamber, that is Brutality in my eyes.

[slamm]

To compare animals with humans and to try to overlay human ethics and morals on animals, or try to overly a lack of morals and ethics of animals on humans is a very amiss in my opinion.

Animals are much more instinctual with no higher brain functions that comprehend ethics and morality to govern/regulate/inhibit instincts.

I do not believe from a Spiritual standpoint animals have the same responsibilities as humans given their lack of capability to even comprehend morality and ethics.

Jewish principles have rules about kosher slaughter that minimize pain, Animals have can have no comprehension of mercy, we do, and our increased abilities have increased responsibilities. "To whom much is given, much is required."
That is all fine and good until you are the one that is in charge of getting 8.5 million chickens dead in one day, LOL. I have butchered and worked as a "kill boy" at a small shop, you do your best to kill quickly and 99% of the time they literally don't know what happened, but then there is the other 1% of the time. They typically video the 1% of the time and present it as the majority.

Videos like this are fine and good, it is, what it is. I am not for prolonged pain and suffering (man or beast) any more than those that are against eating meat and are vegetarians for it.

That being said, prey still has to die in order for us to eat it. Videos like this show things like the eletricution of pigs, as if that was not a fast death, it is good enough for the killing of our own kind, yet this video portrays it as not good enough for a pig.

This video is no skin off my nose, but like most things that are liberal in nature or PETA in nature they present a "problem" or a "situation" yet they don't provide any answers or solutions .... that would work anyways.

They stated something to the effect that medical experiments on animals was not necessary .... that it would be better to use actual humans. I say that is fine .... and I assume the PETA type supporters will now start to offer themselves, along with their own children up for these experiments in order to save the animals, and this is fine with me.

Again I'm not for abuse or any more pain and suffering than is required to get something dead, but I just find it interesting that the people crying foul are usually not country people who typically know and understand life cycles and what they are made up of.

No, they are usually "city" people who for lack of a better way of putting it, are ignorant of how the food arrives at their plate, and when they find out A. its shock and B. somehow they find it life changing. Then these very people, people who just minutes before were completely ignorant and knowledgeless of most anything related to death and dying are now trying to pass laws that effect the lives and livelyhoods of millions of employees and their families or whole ways and walks of life in foreign countries even, LOL.

Additionally, as a side note I always take personal interest in how so much is stated and so much money is given and raised for simple animals, yet in places like Somalia, Africa and many others, humans are raped and slaughtered with machetes by the millions and you don't hear much about that. More money will get raised for a simple poodle down on his luck than starving people in foreign countries.

I'll say it again, I'm not for anymore pain and suffering than is needed to get something dead. So if there is a faster more painless way of killing something I would agree with it, but that is not what these types of videos and the people behind them are after, they are after the total elimination of any type of oppression at all, of any animal, right up to and including pet ownership. At best these groups and the individuals that make up these groups are liberals or of the liberal mindset and they lack simple common sense in many respects.

Here is how a typical discussoin with them goes:

Liberal Vegetarian: You can't eat that bull its not moral or ethical.

Country Boy: Well okay I'll use him in the rodeo because he doesn't have any other future than to be eaten as hamburger. In the rodeo, he will be a star and be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and live out his days working for seconds a week and getting all the cows he wants, and when he dies he will get a grave with a headstone.

Liberal Vegetarian: You can't use him in rodeo, its not moral or ethical.

Country Boy: Well what should I do with him? I can't afford to keep him if he doesn't do something to pay his way through life.

Liberal Vegetarian: You must turn him loose to live out his days in peace and harmony.

Country Boy: If I turn him loose a he will walk onto a road and get killed, or he will die a slow death of starvation this winter. He will get diseased and over run with parasites. In the meantime he will destroy other peoples property who will pay for that, because I'm not.

Liberal Vegetarian: We will take up a collection to support him and feed him.

Country Boy: Thats great but there are millions and millions of these bulls on the earth what do you do with those.

Liberal Vegetarian: Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Country Boy: Hey, have you ever even taken care of a bull? Do you know how to handle one?

Liberal Vegetarian: Uh well, we will get "experts".

Country Boy: Oh, I see.

And at that point, the country boy just quits because it is pointless. The people you are talking to don't have the resemblence of simple common sense or even a grasp of reality. They speak of things they know nothing of, they look down their noses at the rest of the world from a perch that is based on a self imposed "higher moral ground", that I'm not sure who gave them.

If they grew up in China where eating the brains out of live or almost live monkey's was the norm, then thats what they would be doing, but they grew up in some city, insulated, ignorant and completely unaware of the process and procedures involved in getting that raging bull into a plastic and foam wrapper so that they and millions or now billions of others can eat.

To each his own,

Sam

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Another thing about animals is they cannot violate their instincts and they have no conscience to violate. We can know what is wrong and do it anyway.

I don't think slamm seen the part on puppy mills and all those puppies getting shoveled into the gas chamber, that is Brutality in my eyes.

Not to mention walking other human beings into gas chambers. Various acts of genocide, around the globe at various times in History in the name of God (sic) that contradict the principles and ways of God. I find a secular opportunist who takes what they want because they can much more palatable than someone that has to justify their wrong actions by invoking the permission or will of some Deity.

One problem I have with breeding is that there are few people that see dogs like many of us here do, like the video, they tend to be "things" not living feeling beings, tied out in backyards, left alone, fed garbage, etc. They are pack animals, social beings and need to be part of community, family. They find security in consistency, like 'schedule'. order, it is very interesting to watch. How do you place puppies with people who may see dogs as "things"...

[ISAPRESA]

damn Slamm, that was good lol and I must say I do agree with you and I think most would.

god put animals on earth to enjoy and to eat.

although I do think there is a difference between killing an animal humanly and inhumanly. and all that animal cruelty that happens at these puppy mills and such, is all disgusting and for nothing more but greed and the love of money.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

god put animals on earth to enjoy and to eat.

The two reasons sheep in Wyoming are nervous.............watch out for country boys toting six packs of woollite with the scalps of permissive liberals hanging from the rear view mirror .................to late for a long dissertation Ill try later.....

[ISAPRESA]

lol

[Virtues]

Holy crap this film was disturbing, some very graphic images, but it does make you think.

[Alexandra Neufeld]

Country Boy: Thats great but there are millions and millions of these bulls on the earth what do you do with those.

Liberal Vegetarian: Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I think at this point most start arguing that these animals live such a horrible life that they should't exist at all and that we are exploiting them and that people should stop manipulating nature and breeding animals that are dependent on us for survival.

Notice how people who actually have something legitimate to worry about don't go on the these animal crusades. Go to a third or second world country. They're not too concerned with chickens' rights. It's when people get bored with how good they have it that they start looking for a "cause."

[Meredith S.]

I agree with Sam about the "city" people... taking on a cause or crusade based on something they've heard or maybe read, but never researched or experienced first hand.

I have lived on farms all my life, our family owns a century farm (1861), my mother works for a government farm loan company, and my father has farmed all his life and continues to do so.

A friend of mine, who is a vegetarian (whether it's relevant or not), claimed that he didn't drink milk because it was "full of hormones and gave you acne" etc. Well, I informed him that giving dairy cattle hormones in Canada is illegal, and all our grocery store milk comes from Canada...! Thus, hormone free.

The sad part is, he just looked at me and said, "Yeah, well... it's still gross." No mention of being completely misinformed...

:confused:

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Biblical Grounds for being a vegetarian?

How do we know what God did for what? Christians claim to use the Bible partially, so what does it say?

I love a good steak by the way, and I have killed and eaten prey. I have to agree that it is hypocritical for a person to say they do not want to know where and how meat has been delivered to their table and eat it vigor anyway, that shows a lack of character.

But I am seriously considering going vegetarian.


http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer16.htm

Apparently Adam and Eve were vegetarians to begin with.

Genesis 1:28-29 (English-NIV) (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=NIV&passage=Genesis+1:28-29&search=herbs&showxref=&&showfn=&interface=print)

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." 29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. It was not until man ate from the tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil that the first animals were killed,, for their skin for covering, until then there was no knowledge of nakedness etc....

Christians also say that when all goodness is restored the Lion will lay down with the lamb... and not to eat it.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

This was interesting reading...

Caretake your Presa.

http://rivieraucc.org/blogs/2008/04/20/reflecting-god%E2%80%99s-image/

Some have argued that Genesis 1:28 means God gave the earth to humanity to do as it wants. But “having dominion” and “subduing” the earth in the context of the text and ancient Hebrew means no such thing! The New Interpreter’s Bible commentary puts it like this:

a study of the verb [r~dâ] have dominion . . . reveals that it must be understood in terms of care-giving , even nurturing, not exploitation. As the image of God, human beings should relate to the non-human as God relates to them. This idea belongs to the world of the ideal of royal responsibility . . .and centers on the animals. The command to “subdue the earth”. . .focuses on the earth, particularly cultivation. . . More generally “subduing” involves development in the created order. This process offers to the human being the task of intra-creational development, of bringing the world along to its fullest creational potential. 6 Now that is a whole different way to hear the verse. We aren’t given the authority to do as we want with the earth, to dominate it, but rather to act as God’s image– as God would act with it. Simply put, we are to take care of creation, to act as responsibly as God would. God claimed all of creation good, not just humankind, so it makes sense that we are to act responsibly toward it.

[Meredith S.]

Sorry, not religious.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Me either, other than I religiously shave, religiously wash my cloths and other things in life that I do on an interval basis and pretty much the same way.

My point is that when people say "God this or that" what are they basing it on, ihow do they know? If they base it on the Bible.. then.......

[Darianna]

saw the video a while ago...it was very hard for me to watch.

In regards to the vegetarian issue...I'm a strict vegetarian (raw foodist)....

Obviously, animal ethics are one of my reasons for not eating animal-derived foods but, it goes way beyond that: environmental/ecological consequences of producing livestock/overfishing, health, I don't support corporate/factory farming practices , etc...

Just to add, I have worked on organic dairy farms (as a "volunteer" farm hand), worked along side a large animal vet, etc....back when I thought I was going to be a vet,...so i am not the ignorant-removed city dweller that many fellow vegetarians are).

Many vegetarians get fixated on the animal ethics part and never look beyond that (which i think is sad....)...many do it for the wrong reasons, or are complete idiots about it and just pull out the "you can't really love animals if you aren't vegan" card when they have to justify themselves, cause they really don't know what else to say...and then they go home and feed their kitty or dog some vegan kibble...where's the love there? :rolleyes:....

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Ever think about this....

Alot of what is feed,, corn etc can be eaten by humans.
How much feed that could be eaten by humans is fed an animal over its life time?

How long could a human exist on the food the animal ate over its life time v.s. how long the human can exist by eating the individual animal.....

We loose alot in the equation of raising and eating animals....

[ISAPRESA]

thats a good point

[Alexandra Neufeld]

Ever think about this....

Alot of what is feed,, corn etc can be eaten by humans.
How much feed that could be eaten by humans is fed an animal over its life time?

How long could a human exist on the food the animal ate over its life time v.s. how long the human can exist by eating the individual animal.....

We loose alot in the equation of raising and eating animals....

There are some places that can't be used for growing crops. Rocky, steep areas can't be used for growing crops, like this hillside:
http://i.pbase.com/u14/granitehillsdesign/large/41857167.rockyhillsideflowers.jpg
Machinery couldn't be effectively used on it. Cattle, sheep goats, chickens, whatever could utilise that grass and turn it into meat. Pastures can still have trees and can are always used by other wildlife. Of course predators are displaced to an extent, but usually herbivorous animals and smaller things like possums still have habitat. To grow a field of corn you need to destroy the original habitat. Hogs can share a forest with other creatures... not that they aren't very destructive but wildlife CAN coexist with them. So I would argue grass-fed livestock is far more environmentally friendly than crops. Of course, grass fed livestock in the quantity that America needs it is totally unviable and so what I just wrote is irrelevant to reality. But if there weren't so many people...

[Darianna]

There are some places that can't be used for growing crops. Rocky, steep areas can't be used for growing crops, like this hillside:
http://i.pbase.com/u14/granitehillsdesign/large/41857167.rockyhillsideflowers.jpg
Machinery couldn't be effectively used on it. Cattle, sheep goats, chickens, whatever could utilise that grass and turn it into meat. Pastures can still have trees and can are always used by other wildlife. Of course predators are displaced to an extent, but usually herbivorous animals and smaller things like possums still have habitat. To grow a field of corn you need to destroy the original habitat. Hogs can share a forest with other creatures... not that they aren't very destructive but wildlife CAN coexist with them. So I would argue grass-fed livestock is far more environmentally friendly than crops. Of course, grass fed livestock in the quantity that America needs it is totally unviable and so what I just wrote is irrelevant to reality. But if there weren't so many people...


LOL! love the end of your post :D

grass-grazing livestock farming are very, very ecologically destructive. Overgrazing in semi-arid areas can (and has) lead to desertification of ecosystems.

the way crops are farmed today isn't what it used to be...the majority of farms nowadays plant acres upon acres of large monocrops that require fertilization and pest control. Fertilizers eutrophy our soils and waterways....and soil and water nitrogen eutrophication has many consequences for aquatic and terrestrial ecosystems.

I think it's not all about chickens eating our corn...it's about the scale of modern-day farming, and how farming practices have changed to get bigger yeilds (fertilizers, more acreage, more freshwater demands, more animals, etc.)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

duplicated and erased.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

First a word about Presa's since this is a Presa Board.
Elijah, Audaz and Emiliano say hello to everyone that frequents this board. Its a rainy, lazy day, no training, but we will be training in the rain and the snow at times now.

There are some places that can't be used for growing crops. Rocky, steep areas can't be used for growing crops, like this hillside:
http://i.pbase.com/u14/granitehillsdesign/large/41857167.rockyhillsideflowers.jpg
Machinery couldn't be effectively used on it. Cattle, sheep goats, chickens, whatever could utilise that grass and turn it into meat. Pastures can still have trees and can are always used by other wildlife. Of course predators are displaced to an extent, but usually herbivorous animals and smaller things like possums still have habitat. To grow a field of corn you need to destroy the original habitat. Hogs can share a forest with other creatures... not that they aren't very destructive but wildlife CAN coexist with them. So I would argue grass-fed livestock is far more environmentally friendly than crops. Of course, grass fed livestock in the quantity that America needs it is totally unviable and so what I just wrote is irrelevant to reality. But if there weren't so many people...Good intelligent, effective counterpoint, Thank you. Here (U.S.) With machinery it is not advantageous to leave trees and unfortunately short term convenience overrides "green" considerations, (large corporate farms and not enough private farms) for those of greed and a lack of conscience, soul. How much grass land can support "x" number of grazing animals v.s what size land to grow corn that can support "y" number of grazing animals would be interesting to understand. It would be interesting to understand how many people, how many alternative plants could be grown where and how and remain as green as possible.

I do know that chlorella (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=chlorella&spell=1) and other algae's that can be grown about anywhere, rocky steep areas and the like and they are high in protein and is much healthier than eating beef.

You might want to check out
http://www.chlorellafactor.com/chlorella-spirulina-11.html. I actually had a class in high school and we grew chlorella and made some cookies out of it.

There are creative alternatives and solutions to both farming in such a way that destroy or impacts habitat to an extreme (ecologically "unfriendly") and being dependent on eating animals. These are just two.
Chlorella:




A better source of chlorophyll, which makes it more detoxifying and cleansing.
It is especially good for people with liver disorders or people who drink or smoke.
It is very helpful for people with dry stools who suffer from constipation.
It is especially good for people who need "rebuilding" -- people who suffer from degenerative diseases (muscle, nervous system, etc.) or people who are frail.
Contains Chlorella Growth Factor (CGF), which boosts the immune system, reverses cancer, and offers other health benefits.
CGF also helps repair nerve tissues throughout the body and is excellent for treating degenerative brain and nerve disorders.

Spirulina:



A superior source of digestible protein. Contains 12 times the protein of beef.
Easier on the digestive system than chlorella, which can cause diarrhea in sensitive individuals.
The best source of gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), a "good" fat necessary for the human brain, proper heart function, and other body systems.
Contains phycocyanin, a potent anti-cancer phytochemical that also gives spirulina its characteristic blue hue.




We are sucking the oceans of life, here, they are finding pharmaceuticals in our ground water, one can get their prozac by drinking tap water I guess.

For myself, I'm going to kick myself in the ass and grow something every sq. inch of my backyard and perhaps front, considering the waste of watering grass that one cuts, only to water, fertilize it so it grows more so you have to cut it more, empty wasteful circle, we are spoiled and foolish here and there is some old world wisdom that would have done us good to embrace, the deck of cards we have built will inevitably fall, am preparing, Im rambling here finding it hard to maintain any coherency, on my way to feed the dogs.