RAW Feeding

[Junior]

I was wondering what types of meat everyone feeds their dog on a weekly basis. I have just recently started my dog on a RAW diet and he seems to be enjoying it. A couple question I had though:
My dog just tries to swallow as big of a piece as he can, is this normal behaviour?

And also, if I cut the meat before I give it to him does it ruin the benefits of RAW feeding?

I am hoping to get some replies of how others dealt with this and some ideas for a weekly menu.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

My dog just tries to swallow as big of a piece as he can, is this normal behaviour?

And also, if I cut the meat before I give it to him does it ruin the benefits of RAW feeding?

I am hoping to get some replies of how others dealt with this and some ideas for a weekly menu.


If you can get the beef rough ground it helps the big piece issue, I believe big pieces could make digestion less thorough. I do 80 percent raw and 20 percent Solid Gold Wolf King, myself, through in eggs, cottage cheese, raw blended vegetables.

[pittbull22]

I do 80 percent raw and 20 percent Solid Gold Wolf King, myself, through in eggs, cottage cheese, raw blended vegetables.

I also do about a 80-20 ratio of raw and Canidae or Extreme Athlete, but I have a question about the cottage cheese. The first time you gave your dog cottage cheese was his bowels a little "mushier" than normal?

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I have found that if you add small portions of things, in this case cottage cheese you do not effect bowel movements really, small amounts over time.
Go overboard on an ingredient, you can get a mess.... ask me how I know....:D....

[pittbull22]

one more question if we are to be feeding 2% of the dogs body weight that would mean for example: chicken quarters+ eggs+ the veggies+ the cottage cheese would have to weigh 2lbs all together if the dog was 100lbs, correct?

[Alexandra Neufeld]

It doesn't have to be precise, really. Just feed him about 2 lbs. Maybe a little less meat and a little more something else some days, maybe 2 lbs of meat and a little extra something. Maybe he gets 3 lbs one day, maybe he gets 1.5 lbs one day. Just get a feel for what you want his condition to be and then feed accordingly. Just like you don't weigh your food (I don't think.) It isn't a chemical reaction or anything, you're just giving a dog something to eat.

I feed whatever's on sale. Usually chicken backs and thighs, maybe some eggs and some organ meat. Heart is good, apparently, because as well as an organ it is muscle meat. Sometimes he gets pork pinic, chicken drumsticks, turkey, etc. Also, I feed pig feet. There's a lot of bone and tough stuff that takes a dog a while to get through.

Today, so far, my 80lb shepherd has had a couple eggs, 4 pig feet and two pieces of pork heart about the size of my fist. He'll get about 1.5 to 2 lbs of chicken later this evening. But he didn't get so much yesterday.

As far as eating too big a chunk... well I don't worry about it. I just throw him out in the yard with something.

Cutting up the meat isn't going to do anything except make it quicker for him to eat it, which means less chewing which cleans the gums. That would be the only side effect.

[Darianna]

first of all...everybody seems to have their own way that they feed raw, so what you need to do is go online or to a bookstore and get some reading done on it so that you can understand the method behind the madness:). You need to understand how to nutritionally balance a raw meal: meat/bone to calcium/phosphorus to veg/fruit ratios. But, once you get going...it's easy!


and from what I'm reading....am I reading right that people here are mixing kibble with raw meat? :eek: 'cause you guys know that something raw and something processed will be "handled" by the digestive system at different rates and that will not be gastronomic bliss for the dog....just a thought :)

the percentage people are talking about is the minimum 2% of the dog's weight he/she should eat in raw meat/bone. You don't go below 2%...but a dog (exercise dependent) can eat up to 5% (sometimes higher than that...).

My dogs are on a base of bison (I get it for a great price, butchered the way I want and they are killed humanely ...I know the bison rancher...and as a vegetarian...I care about things like that :o:)).

The majority of the meals they eat are bison meat (bison meat, a raw "mixer" like Sojos Europa or preference by honest kitchen, kelp sprinkles, cottage cheese or kefir, mackarel/sardines, fish oil on top)..., and I rotate in a few times a week beef, turkey pork or chicken (which is a last resort for me because my source isn't organic). I feed raw bones recreationally (3-4 times a week) to my dogs - to keep their jaws worked out, and their teeth clean. I will only occasionally feed chicken leg quarters/wings or turkey necks as a meal (with my additives)...

As for weighing, I package out their meals in weighed portions...I need to know what my dogs are eating....

As for your dog taking in too big of chunks, if it's just muscle meat, that's not a problem. If it's meat attached to bone (like a whole chicken carcass or leg quarters) then that's not a good thing. Typically, if you feed meat + bone and you know your dog doesn't chew carefully, you grind it up....all you need is an impacted bowel or damage to the digestive tract because of a hunk of bone he/she she ingested...this does happen, and the outcomes aren't always good.

that's just my 2 cents :)

[ISAPRESA]

well said !

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I am not sure I understand why the fact that meat and kibble are digested at different rates is bad. I read about that long ago and have had people tell me that, as human we eat a variety of foods during a meal that we digest at different rates. Balanced nutrition and balanced energy delivery between meals, kibble has more carbohydrates by weight than raw meat, is see raw as more immediate energy and kibble more long term energy. Perhaps youi can describe in detail beyond the fact that kibble is digested slower, why is that fact negative? My dogs have never had an digestive stress from doing 80/20.

[LawrenceandHaney]

I feed Chicken necks/backs

I mix eggs or olive oil depending on the day. As well as veggies (whatever I have as scraps or on hand or whatever is discounted at my local produce store)

I also have some organ meat frozen on hand that I buy from my chicken supplier it consists of hearts and liver.

I use the liver sparingly however as too much is not good for the dogs in my experience.

I have never had a problem with pieces I never grind up the meat or veggies as the shark like teeth of my Presas seem to work just fine. In addition I think the chewing and biting leaves the teeth cleaner my girls have whites that would put most movies stars to shame.

I have or do on occasion add pumpkin (many nutritional benefits)

Like most have stated you learn along the way as far as portion control goes.

Best of Luck,

Lawrence

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

L and H. I feed beef and rough ground is a lot more convenient, easier to pack in containers and big pieces, of meat pieces that can be as big as a forearm, muscle from here and there, meat has enzymes that help clean the teeth and the smaller rough ground pieces are better for that, beef is a bit different than feeding chicken, I know the there is a common parasite in beef that can be detrimental to dogs if the beef is not frozen first, it can be passed on through mothers milk as well and effect pups, causes paralysis of a pups rear legs, not real common but it can happen, so I freeze the fresh ground meat I get from a slaughter house and then thaw it to feed. Sometimes I buy whole beef hearts and let them have at it as well.

[pittbull22]

This thread is making me upset!!!:mad: Naw not really but I just want to let you all know, the ones the live in theses area's where you can find slaughter houses, and farms, and let the dog run on 1000 acres of land are so lucky! I have to drive approx. a hour and a half out to Souther Maryland just to buy some 'good' raw thats not that high in variety. I think Im just jealous :D, though!

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Well if you had been a girl, I could have changed that for you.....:D

[Darianna]

in terms of feeding raw + kibble the obvious is that these will be digested at different rates and because of this the readily digested raw will take longer to digest (than usual) because of the presence of processed food, hindering maximal nutrient absorption from the raw....which is ultimately why you'd feed raw in the first place - feeding food with active enzymes and vitamins that can be readily absorbed.

if you feed raw and kibble, feed it seperate meals (breakfast kibble, dinner raw). Some dogs can't handle it ...if your dogs can, and it works...great.

I too don't have access to a slaughter house. I live in Toronto. My father lives/works in another province and sends me the meat in installments. My other meat sources I drive to get - organic pork guy is 3+ hours away....wish I had that luxury, though ;)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

How does pork work out for you? I have always had caution when I have thought of feeding pork to my dogs, probably irrational, but caution just the same, or maybe I just want to have "Kosher Presa's".....

[Darianna]

How does pork work out for you? I have always had caution when I have thought of feeding pork to my dogs, probably irrational, but caution just the same, or maybe I just want to have "Kosher Presa's".....


The guy I get my pork from is a small-scale organic pork farmer...and when I say small...he has to decline selling to people b/c when he doesn't have enough animals. He feeds an almost exclusively raw pork diet and they seem to thrive on it...I'll feed pork once or twice in a week and i don't have any concerns because I know the source of meat is organic and how the animals are kept (cleanliness of environment, not an overcrowded hog farm, etc.). Would I feed my dogs pork from any other source...sure, but not raw. Pigs can be a host of many parasites, so the worry people have about eating uncooked pork does have truth behind it....

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

You would feed cooked pork? I try not to feed my dogs anything cooked (other than kibble) but.... damn, one day I was barbequeing some 3 inch Sirloins all tenderized and the like, pocketed and stuffed with havarti, barbequed salmon and bacon... I kept wondering what happened to the 5th Steak only to see Elijah coming around the corner licking his chops.... damn dog...I started looking him over wondering what size spit I would need and thinking I should be Korean........

[Darianna]

What I meant was, if I bought some ground pork meat, lets say from Costco...I wouldn't feed that to my dogs raw...i'd rather cook it. If I don't know anything about the meat, how the animal was raised, what the farming conditions were (what they were fed, are they from an overcrowded factory farm where they were bombarded with any and every antibiotic in the book, how clean their environment was, etc.) i wouldn't feed it to them raw....this is my opinion about pork, specifically. The name of the parasite associate with uncooked pork meat is trichinellosis (roundworm)... I just don't want to increase my dogs' changes of getting it by feeding them meat from an unknown source...even though I only feed previously-frozen meat...still, i just try to keep things as safe as possible.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Trich can be nasty for humans as well, but has been somewhat rare in modern times, still best to cook pork till it's white inside, why I have always been a little leary feeding it to my dogs, I know dogs digestive systems are much more robust than humans, but would rather not take the chance with worms.... yuck..... I understood why you would cook it if you did not know the quality of the source.... I was being a little tongue in cheek..... now I am getting hungry.. Im picking up a rack of baby backs on the way home from work!!!!

I wonder what sauces Koreans use to put on dog?

[presasrus]

I heard that blue presas can eat uncooked pork just fine...:D

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Blue Presas?.... a cross between a dogo canario and a Smurf?

[Darianna]

:confused:

another thread down the $hitter....

[presasrus]

Ok I for the record take full responsibility for derailing the topic, but didn't intend for it to blow completely off course. So, my apologies with the blue presa remark.

I was just researching and found some comments on raw/cooked/uncooked feeding that I would like to post for feedback and get us back on track here. A few are from Vets, I think - but keep in mind that many sources contributed. I'll just quote them. Agree, disagree?

1. "Dogs have stronger stomach acids and can handle food that would make you sick. The way to ensure anything bad in the meat is killed is to freeze it first, and after it's been frozen a few days, you can feed it and not worry about any problems."

2. "Raw meat can run the risk of bringing out the inner "wolf" because of the blood and raw flesh."

3. "Ground meats have a higher risk of being infected with salmonella bacteria than do whole cuts of meat."

4. "Wild dogs don't cook their kills. Dogs are made to eat raw meat just like a lion."

5. "In the wild, dogs can eat raw meats without any trouble...but once they have been domesticated, they become more sensitive."

6. "Dogs do not digest cooked meats well."

So again folks, my apologies. Hopefully this generates some discussion.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

What's wrong with a humour break? or should we remain scientific and cold?
Ok you take responsiblity for serving the ball, Ill take responsiblity for hitting it, Smurfs are funny to me, what can I say?

http://www.feedthis.com/rawvskibble.html

You might find the information on the above link interesting. A little exaggerated in place in my opinion but very good points.

1. "Dogs have stronger stomach acids and can handle food that would make you sick. The way to ensure anything bad in the meat is killed is to freeze it first, and after it's been frozen a few days, you can feed it and not worry about any problems."

True


2. "Raw meat can run the risk of bringing out the inner "wolf" because of the blood and raw flesh."

Absurd and laughable

3. "Ground meats have a higher risk of being infected with salmonella bacteria than do whole cuts of meat."

Depends, treated and handled the same no difference.

4. "Wild dogs don't cook their kills. Dogs are made to eat raw meat just like a lion."

Agreed, for robust breeds.

5. "In the wild, dogs can eat raw meats without any trouble...but once they have been domesticated, they become more sensitive."

After years of inbreeding for show dogs, yes, Genetically diverse breedings no.

6. "Dogs do not digest cooked meats well."

True imho

[presasrus]

I like a good laugh too, agreed SFVG :)

Does anyone know if this is a true statement?

"[In terms of pancreatitis] pork isn't any more dangerous than beef, lamb or chicken. The fat content is key, and many pets suffer from pancreatitis when fed excessively fatty, greasy table scraps."

[Darianna]

lol...no need for huge appologies...:) I just thought that the whole thread would lead to dead-end one-upping smart ass remarks...which i totally appreciate...but hoped to see some interesting raw food contribution posts (other than my own ;):D:p)

[Alexandra Neufeld]

Well I have given my shepherd un-organic un-free range pork for the past 14 and he's never had a problem.


1. "Dogs have stronger stomach acids and can handle food that would make you sick. The way to ensure anything bad in the meat is killed is to freeze it first, and after it's been frozen a few days, you can feed it and not worry about any problems."
And really, as far as dogs' stomachs go, and worrying about what they eat... we have to remember that these are creatures that positively relish other animals' feces, in addition to any putrid dead things.

"Raw meat can run the risk of bringing out the inner "wolf" because of the blood and raw flesh."
Uh, only if he learns where that meat came from. Example: dog catches squirrel, figures out squirrels are tasty, dog tries to catch squirrels for food in the future. If you take the squirrel away before the dog eats it, bbq it and give it back to him, he won't view squirrels as a food source.

3. "Ground meats have a higher risk of being infected with salmonella bacteria than do whole cuts of meat."
I thought this was true because salmonella is in the intestines and the ground meat comes from the stomach area and sometimes get a little intestinal material/juice mixed in, whereas a tenderloin wouldn't be vulnerable to that.

"Wild dogs don't cook their kills. Dogs are made to eat raw meat just like a lion."
As far as dogs are meant to eat raw meat like a lion... well, 10,000 years ago or so, wolves started coming into human societies. Since then, they have evolved as our garbage disposals lol. So as the domestic dog formed it would have formed on raw meat, sure, but also on human scraps. That is, after all, a very probable theory as to why they started hanging around us, for leftovers. So I'm of the opinion that you can feed them just about anything. So far so good.

"In the wild, dogs can eat raw meats without any trouble...but once they have been domesticated, they become more sensitive."
What SFVG said.

"Dogs do not digest cooked meats well."
I've never seen a dog having a problem with cooked meat.

[Junior]

As for your dog taking in too big of chunks, if it's just muscle meat, that's not a problem. If it's meat attached to bone (like a whole chicken carcass or leg quarters) then that's not a good thing. Typically, if you feed meat + bone and you know your dog doesn't chew carefully, you grind it up....all you need is an impacted bowel or damage to the digestive tract because of a hunk of bone he/she she ingested...this does happen, and the outcomes aren't always good.

that's just my 2 cents :)
Wow, didn't expect this many replies as I thought the forum was dead, so thanks for all the info.

In response to the above quote, I tried giving him a drumstick and he tried swallowing it whole. I immediately removed it of course. So I ending up cutting the drumsticks into fours. Is this okay? There were bones it in and I only saw him chew it really maybe 1-3 times.

ATM I'm feeding chicken drumsticks and drumsticks with the back attached. I will be ordering about 40 lbs of chicken backs from a meat shop that is about a 2 hour drive. Is this a good diet for him and is it a good amount to purchase meat for a dog in? Also should I be adding anything in with the chicken backs?

Sorry for all the questions, it's just this is my first time feeding one of my dogs RAW.

[Kiroman]

kibble has more carbohydrates by weight than raw meat,

Well considering raw meat has ZERO carbs, not hard to imagine...

DO NOT MIX KIBBLE AND RAW!

As humans do eat a variety of foods, a nominal amount is raw, even if you do eat some sushi every now and then...

This is very well documented and is unsafe for your dog.... I fed raw with zero issues. My presa ate all types of meat with bones of all types of sizes, not cutting up, presas do not need their bones cut up, while many people grind, I feel this is a major loss of benefits of RAW feeding. But as others have stated, how you feed RAW is very subjective, but I have a stong feeling that mixing kibble and RAW is VERY discouraged!!

[Kiroman]

Wow, didn't expect this many replies as I thought the forum was dead

HAHA...right


In response to the above quote, I tried giving him a drumstick and he tried swallowing it whole. I immediately removed it of course. So I ending up cutting the drumsticks into fours. Is this okay?

its fine, but Why? Hand feed the meat and bones and you can control how much the dog gets in his mouth, no issues then... Also do not feed chicken backs exclusivily

[presasrus]

I found some more debatable info on the raw-kibble mix. What does everyone think of this?

"[Mixing raw and kibble] can cause problems down the road as the gut will need certain enzymes to digest raw food and not the same ones for the kibbled food."

"[W]hen feeding a raw kibble mix it is a good idea to add enzymes to speed up the digestive time of the kibble food."

So, I'm curious to know if anyone is using an enzyme supplement?

But then look at this one:

"[If] you want to feed them at the same time, adding 3 tbsp of yogurt & 1 tbsp molasses per cup of kibble should bring the digestion & elimination of the kibble on par with the raw."

Some other material that I've been reading suggests that giving say, kibble in the morning, then raw later on for the second meal, works OK as this approach accounts for the different digestion rates.

Also, Junior, I found this for you re: large pieces of raw:

"Don't freak out when your dog does gulp alarmingly large pieces of meat and bones. Dogs really aren't built to politely chew their food. They are meant to tear and crunch food just enough to get it down their throats and into their stomachs, where digestion occurs. Even after more than a year of raw feeding, I'm amazed at what big sizes my dogs (especially dainty little Beth) can swallow. She can almost swallow a chicken leg/thigh quarter whole."

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

1. When the same information is regurgitated, more than likely stated by one person then repeated as gospel by many others, you can end up with a very well "documented" misconception. Dog's digestive systems are much more robust than humans, you think the steak and the bread you ate digest at the same rate? Did it cause you issues?

2. There are also web sites that present mixed raw and kbbile diets.

2. The dangers or RAW only are also documented but not by the layman on the internet but in Academic/Scientific journals.

So the debate rages on. All I know is my dogs are doing great, no issues with 80/20.

http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/raw.html


It is not just the raw meat that can cause today's domesticated dog harm. Raw vegetables can also do damage. The Glycemic Index of Foods (Internet web site at www.glycemic.com) shows that raw carrot can cause the pancreas to produce much more insulin than the same amount of cooked carrot. The overload of insulin will then cause the dogs liver to have problems the same as a diabetic human would experience. The Glycemic Index of Foods list over 1,000 raw and cooked meats and vegetable food sources and shows us that we MUST choose what we put into an animals diet with care. We are seeing an increase in the number of diabetic dogs and the correlation between the growing popularity of feeding dogs a raw food diet and this disease can not be ignored.
Another argument for not feeding today's domesticated dog a raw food diet is that we know domesticated dogs have been eating cooked food for over 300,000 years. In the Middle Pleistocene period companion pets (dogs included) were buried along side their masters. Grave sites have been uncovered by archaeologists which have revealed much about the companion pets as well as the early humanoids who were roaming this earth at that time. i.e. the site of Zhoukoudian in North China. Our present day domesticated dogs have been eating cooked foods long enough to cause a change in their digestive and glandular systems and the way that they will react to raw foods.

[presasrus]

OK, if I add cottage cheese or a yogurt to these higher gly indexed foods, does that reduce the chemical response?

Also, what about comparatively higher GI sources for post-"work" muscle glycogen restoration? Not sure where exercise physiology studies are going these days, but since many on this forum work their dogs, maybe this is of interest, or trash, who knows. Thought I'd put it out there anyway.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

OK, if I add cottage cheese or a yogurt to these higher gly indexed foods, does that reduce the chemical response?

Haven't a clue. I dont know whether cottage cheese or yogurt is suppose to combat the negatives of higher gly index foods. Ill I know is I have never seen a dog dig up a raw carrot out of my garden and eat it or cook them and eat it.

Also, what about comparatively higher GI sources for post-"work" muscle glycogen restoration? Not sure where exercise physiology studies are going these days, but since many on this forum work their dogs, maybe this is of interest, or trash, who knows. Thought I'd put it out there anyway.

I believe excersise and a good amount of it corrects a lot of potential problems, helps dogs and use eliminate toxins that over time cause a lot of problems. The amish eat high cholostrol diets, high fat and are very healthy, they also work their butts off. Sweating is good.

[presagirls]

.

[presagirls]

"We are seeing an increase in the number of diabetic dogs and the correlation between the growing popularity of feeding dogs a raw food diet and this disease can not be ignored."

I would love to see some official facts/research to back this up!!

Dogs are carnivores and are designed to best utilize and digest animal protein and fat. The advent of commercial diets in the last 60 years has introduced large amounts of grains and starches. These foods are carbohydrates, which are sugars. Besides adding sugars to the diet, these foods add more fiber and bulk to the dogs system.

Sugar in turn, directly affects the blood sugar in the body. Canines are designed to make glucose from amino acids (proteins) which keep the blood sugar level in a canine’s body. This in turn, helps to keep blood sugar levels even. Feeding diets high in grains (wheat, corn, oatmeal, barley, amaranth and rice to name a few) along with starches (potatoes, sweet potatoes, beets and carrots) cause blood sugar to rise and then fall. This type of action directly affects diabetes, can trigger epileptic seizures, create aggravation in joints in dogs with arthritis, affect thyroid conditions and lastly, offer energy to cancer cells.

As stated in all canine nutrition textbooks, no nutritional requirement is given for these types of foods for dogs.

This is a complex issue in small animals, and the type of diabetes found between cats and dogs is different. Cats often have type II diabetes, while type I is more common in dogs. New research has indicated that higher protein diets are more effective for cats, but new research is showing this may be true for dogs as well.

Consumption of diets with low carbohydrate, high protein, and moderate fat content may be advantageous for prevention and management of obesity, impaired glucose tolerance, and diabetes in cats and dogs. Use of low glycaemic index carbohydrates and supplementation with carnitine, chromium, and vitamin A may also be advantageous.”
While studies on cats discuss that cats are carnivores and need protein, it is also true dogs are carnivores. It is thought the higher animal protein diets create more even sugar levels in the blood stream. And certainly a fresh food diet would provide optimum nutrition, offering a more easily digestible food with more bioavailable nutrients than processed foods.

[presasrus]

That was a good read, thanks for sharing. So, suppose blood sugars rise and fall, would that promote changes in temperament too? I think it would. If I skip a meal, obviously sugar drops, and I get irritable...but that's just me. :)

How do you suppose this would look?

Facts: pups from same parents, pups are same age.

A - pup is fed raw, and not exercised at all beyond what it might do in a backyard on its own.

B - pup is fed just kibble, and exercised very well.

Which is "healthier" at two years of age?

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

What kibble? Ole Roy or a Premium known good brand?

Premium kibble and excersise.

You do not want to feed RAW only and you do not want to feed Ole Roy, only...

So why not RAW with appropriate supplementation and excersise?

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

lol...no need for huge appologies...


I only saw one apology... I took responsibility but hell if Ill apologize for commenting on smurfs!!!!:D

[Darianna]

2. "Raw meat can run the risk of bringing out the inner "wolf" because of the blood and raw flesh." ridiculous

3. "Ground meats have a higher risk of being infected with salmonella bacteria than do whole cuts of meat." I think from a raw feeding standpoint it's all about the source of meat and your handling practices.

4. "Wild dogs don't cook their kills. Dogs are made to eat raw meat just like a lion." That's why whole-animal carcass based raw diets are most similar to what a dog would find in the wild....they would never go after just for legs and backs....and that's where I think people have started to go wrong in terms of raw feeding. If you aren't varying the diet and just feeding your dog day-in/day-out necks and backs your dog is eating a whole lotta unbalanced nutrition...just my opinion on where i stand on raw.

5. "In the wild, dogs can eat raw meats without any trouble...but once they have been domesticated, they become more sensitive." bs...that's what iams and pedigree and vets would like you to believe

6. "Dogs do not digest cooked meats well." there's nothing wrong with cooking food for your dog. If you balance the meal nutritionally, I think there's no problem at all. Obviously, some nutrition value has been lost through the cooking process, but I'd rather my dogs eat a home-cooked meal over kibble.


:)

[Darianna]

2. "Raw meat can run the risk of bringing out the inner "wolf" because of the blood and raw flesh." ridiculous

3. "Ground meats have a higher risk of being infected with salmonella bacteria than do whole cuts of meat." I think from a raw feeding standpoint it's all about the source of meat and your handling practices.

4. "Wild dogs don't cook their kills. Dogs are made to eat raw meat just like a lion." That's why whole-animal carcass based raw diets are most similar to what a dog would find in the wild....they would never go after just for legs and backs....and that's where I think people have started to go wrong in terms of raw feeding. If you aren't varying the diet and just feeding your dog day-in/day-out necks and backs your dog is eating a whole lotta unbalanced nutrition...just my opinion on where i stand on raw.

5. "In the wild, dogs can eat raw meats without any trouble...but once they have been domesticated, they become more sensitive." bs...that's what iams and pedigree and vets would like you to believe

6. "Dogs do not digest cooked meats well." there's nothing wrong with cooking food for your dog. If you balance the meal nutritionally, I think there's no problem at all. Obviously, some nutrition value has been lost through the cooking process, but I'd rather my dogs eat a home-cooked meal over kibble.


:)

[presasrus]

Okay, this is not from a peer reviewed Vet journal but I found this. Friends of mine swear that raw has their dogs more edgy, but I won't go there. I post it for a good Friday night laugh:

"By continually feeding your dog a raw meat diet, you are instinctively activating its natural prey drive or excitement hormones. Raw meat increases the levels of testosterone, adrenalin and cortisol. Thereby adding to the motivation to chase or hunt other creatures and become more aggressive. A very risky situation if you live in a neighbourhood with other family pets and small children."

SFVG -

Ok sorry, let me add facts:

Kibble is top rated, won't say a name, but let's assume "top" which I guess is a strange way to rate kibble, as it is at the end of the day just kibble.

Even if I said a poorly reviewed kibble, and exercise, what then? I would argue the raw case as the poor fuel in this example would probably not support all of the exercise stress and recovery. Agree? Now, it's reckless of me to lean the other way, but I have in my time observed athletes (not pros mind you) eat very very poorly yet these folks are very lean and perform well in sports.

Clearly a good 80/20 plus exercise is best. Agree?

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Given the lower in quality in kibble you go the more carcinogenic it is (in general)....I would to RAW with backyard excersise,, but again, is a mute and vain point.. why not the best of the best?

[presagirls]

"You do not want to feed RAW only"

why not? I have fed raw for over 10 years and my dogs have been very healthy!

""By continually feeding your dog a raw meat diet, you are instinctively activating its natural prey drive or excitement hormones. Raw meat increases the levels of testosterone, adrenalin and cortisol. Thereby adding to the motivation to chase or hunt other creatures and become more aggressive. A very risky situation if you live in a neighbourhood with other family pets and small children."

Sounds like something created by a kibble company......again I would like to see the proof that raw causes increase of testosterone and aggression:confused:

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

As I stated: 2. "Raw meat can run the risk of bringing out the inner "wolf" because of the blood and raw flesh."

Absurd and laughable

I tend to prefer reading all perspectives. For and against. Ill stick with 80/20.

Whether it's vets getting greased by Dog food companies or people pedaling their own provincialisms on the internet, is no never mind to me, everyone has to choose for themselves.


http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html


Barfers' loudly proclaim the value of "raw" versus cooked. While there is no question that some nutrients are degraded by the cooking process there are also a number of nutrients that are unavailable to the animal unless the given ingredient is cooked. Sometimes there is a trade off. For example, vitamin C is easily destroyed by heat whereas carotenoids are made more available by the softening effects of cooking. Manufacturers can easily add in more vitamin C to increase the levels in the final product. In some cases vegetables must be cooked to be safe to eat. Common starches are a good example of a nutrient that is virtually unusable unless cooked. Cooking tomatoes significantly increases lycopene absorption. Uncooked whole grains are virtually useless to dogs. 18, 19 Digestibility as measured by protein efficiency ratio of raw kidney beans significantly improved when cooked. True digestibility and net protein utilization also showed a significant improvement in the case of cooked kidney beans.32 Trypsin inhibitors isolated from buckwheat seeds are heat stable and can cause poor digestion if they are not suitably cooked before consumption.34

[pittbull22]

What kibble? Ole Roy or a Premium known good brand?

Premium kibble and excersise.

You do not want to feed RAW only and you do not want to feed Ole Roy, only...

So why not RAW with appropriate supplementation and excersise?

I just want say this is a coincidence that you bought up ole roy, when I first got this boy pup, his previous owner told me he eats nothnig but the best"ole roy" bone and something of another formula. He had the smelliest coat I ever smelled in my entire life. One week of raw (without bathing) and the smell was gone, thank goodness. Ole Roy should be sued, for having a product that can be smelled through the skin through the thick skin of any molosser dog, hey any dog for that matter! I guess its like if I ate nothing but garlic for four months, my skin would smell like garlic! But to anyone using or considering Ole Roy! STOP, STOP IT RIGHT NOW!

[Juan00]

Okay, I'm going to chime in with my two cents from what I've experienced first hand with kibble versus raw on my dogs and based on my experience.

A bit over five years ago, I switched my 7 year old bullmastiff and our 10 year old cocker spaniel from what was considered a super high grade quality kibble to raw. note: high quality and highly rated kibbles, and finally settled on one that had the best results.

With Kibble:
Bullmastiff had severe canine acne, her physical ailments often manifested themselves, her fur was brittle, her skin was constantly dry, she had several hot spots, she had a pronounced doggy odor, she drank lots of water, and pooped a lot.

Cocker Spaniel: her old age showed her wear and she had eye problems required medication, her skin was constantly dry, she had poor fur, she drank LOTS of water, had very low energy, shook frequently, and pooped a lot.

On Raw:
Bullmastiff: almost everything went away, except for her physical ailments. However, on those, she had increased flexibility, had more energy, drank far less water, and pooped a lot less. The results were dramatic and a a dog that looked like she was only going to live to be 8, lived to be 12 years old. That's impressive for a bullmastiff, especially one that had so many healthy problems ever since she was a young puppy.

Cocker: She was in real bad shape, and although she ended up being blind the last year of her life (she lived to be 12.5 years old), she still had energy, almost all her previous ailments went away, she drank FAR less water (normal amount), and went poop a lot less as well.

Interestingly, enough, our dogs had always suffered from flea problems. It wasn't excessive, but they were there during flea season. On raw, they NEVER had fleas and this wasn't an expected result, just something that we noticed right away.

Mole, our Presa, has always been on raw and she's rarely been to vets except for basic visits. She's been extremely healthy, has NEVER had fleas or ticks, has always been full of energy and her fur is always shiny. She doesn't drink much water and only goes poop once a day and a small amount at that.

I don't miss that kibble poop smell, and after dog-sitting my sister-in-laws dog two weeks ago, I got a good wiff of that kibble poop once again. P-----U! Stinky stuff and her dog pooped more frequently and much more than Mole and he's one third her size!

Forget about asking most vet$ about raw. Especially when $cience Diet and orther companie$ pay these vets to pimp their product$. These type of vet$ will alway$ down raw because they're either ignorant, or they are programmed to push the kibble$ on dog owner$.

Btw, it's interesting to read comments that say "raw will make your dog more aggressive" or "this and that is better than pure raw" especially when people are only going by what the ignorant masses are saying about raw. Oh, and I'm not quoting anyone in here, this is stuff I've read about all the time when it comes to raw and just shows complete ignorance.

Our dogs didn't become food aggressive when switched to raw, I could take food away from their mouths, and the only reason they ate it faster is because it tasted better! Can you imagine going from boring kibble to a juicy chicken leg quarter or a piece of beef! Dogs must be like, "I'm in heaven!" Meanwhile, Mole has no handler aggression and has always been a great tempered girl with everyone she meets...children and adults...as long as they're friendly or not wearing a bite suit. ;)

Anyhow, to each their own, and I never push raw on everyone, but since this is appropriate for this thread, I figured I would share. If anyone want to know how I feed raw (I keep it very simple), I'm always willing to share via e-mail.

[presasrus]

SFVG - Best of the best, agreed. I don't plan on/haven't played with these scenarios for the record, other than the most optimal of course. In my immediate community I see and hear the "poor kibble diet/ lack of exercise" selection, more often than not unfortunately. Sad fact.

Also, did I hear a guy correctly the other day when he said he feeds his six month old shepherd six pounds of raw food per day? Obviously, no one on this forum was there, obviously, but does this make sense? I have read 2-3%of bodyweight but that dog weighs 70 pounds, and he doesn't exercise that much, apparently. Does this make sense? The dog is growing like a weed, and seems happy mind you.

[Juan00]

Also, did I hear a guy correctly the other day when he said he feeds his six month old shepherd six pounds of raw food per day? Obviously, no one on this forum was there, obviously, but does this make sense? I have read 2-3%of bodyweight but that dog weighs 70 pounds, and he doesn't exercise that much, apparently. Does this make sense? The dog is growing like a weed, and seems happy mind you.

Raw food has a lot of moisture in it. That's why dogs drink less water. Ever seen what kibble does when you place it in water? It expands like crazy, and IMO, that's what fills up the dog...but then poop out a lot of the stuff that they can't digest. I've seen a good amount of dogs on raw and kibble and dogs on kibble poop more frequently and with greater quantity. They also drink far more water.

When my girl was young she was very active and I fed her almost five pounds of raw a day at one point, and that didn't last for too long. So, it sounds about right to me.

Now I only feed her once chicken quarter a day on average (or other meats that are equivalent to that as I also feed her beef, turkey, and pork), sometimes a bit more.

[presagirls]

"Also, did I hear a guy correctly the other day when he said he feeds his six month old shepherd six pounds of raw food per day? Obviously, no one on this forum was there, obviously, but does this make sense? I have read 2-3%of bodyweight but that dog weighs 70 pounds, and he doesn't exercise that much, apparently. Does this make sense? The dog is growing like a weed, and seems happy mind you."

The 2% is an approximate starting point.....pups can eat as much as 10%; my almost 4 month old pup is eating 3 lbs. per day and acting starving; but her weight looks good. My 17 mo. old (about 90 lbs.) is eating 4 lbs. per day but she is very active and skinny IMO; I will have to increase that if she doesn't put some meat on her ribs soon......and my oldest girl (9 1/2) is eating 1.5 lbs. per day.....just depends on their metabolism and how active they are......best to go by the look of their ribs and flank.