Looking for some answers

[ISAPRESA]

I know this is a controversial topic, But what age would one start using a prong collar and E-collar for training ? Is 8.5 months to young even If the dog has a hard temperment.

all advice is appreciated

thank you

[genevieve]

E- collar should never be used unless it is in the hands of a professional, you can do a ton of damage, especially to a young dog.

Genevieve

[Landon]

13th August 2008
ISAPRESA

What to expect from a 7 month Female ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everybody ! Im looking to get some general input on what would be expected of behavior or what would be the ideal female presa at 7 months of age ? I know every pup at this age is very immature and they are all different, But should they still be mouthy ?, overly friendly with strangers?, timid of strange objects or lound sounds?, getting into mischief and not staying by your side ? all input is appreciated ! thank you

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know this is a controversial topic, But what age would one start using a prong collar and E-collar for training ? Is 8.5 months to young even If the dog has a hard temperment.

all advice is appreciated

thank you


I am confused, are you saying your dog went from timid to hard temperment in just over a month? :confused:


Stay away from both and try getting the dog to respect you first, not fear you - see what results you may get :)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

One of the saddest and most idiotic things I have seen with a E-Collar is a gal that had two GS's, two e-collars and two controls. She had one dog crated and was training another, the dog she was training was not obeying, she was pushing the button on the control for the crated dogs collar and was pressing it over and over again because she was not getting a reaction from the dog she wanted to correct.. we had to scream at her to get her attention because she was frying the wrong dog.

E-collars have rare real usage for 90 percent of dogs or more, and are used to much by people that have no ideas or have run out of ideas to reward motivate or as a short cut because of a lack of knowledge and they end up with real weirded out dogs. I have only used an E-collar to teach a distant off-leash recall, no way of "inspiring" the dog from a distance, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have not needed to use it, but it did shorten the "learning" time. There are some very hard dogs, where e-collar use makes sense, but that is an area, as Genevieve indicates that is left to the experienced. I would recommend learning from a few people that really know and understand proper use of an E-Collar, read, study.

Prong or e-collar, depends on the dog, what the issue is or what is trying to be trained.

[Darianna]

I don't at all recommend using an e-collar for correction if you don't know what you are doing with it. It can deliver serious damage to your dog, and really screw it up mentally if you think you're just going to blast it with voltage every time it does something incorrectly or bad.

question: why would you need these training tools in the first place? ...why aren't you in obedience training with her (sounds to me that you might be doing "do-it-yourself" training)?

I had an e-collar by Dogtra -it was stolen 4 weeks ago when my car was broken into (I kept it in my glove compartment):mad:...I brought it to my former trainer to ask him if he could show me how to use it.... his solution was to deliver a maximum-volt shock after whatever behaviour I don't want him to do (ex. dog aggression) :eek:......I ran for the hills!!!!

I initially purchased it after I had an episode where Solo got out of his collar and ran onto a busy street during rush hour as a young pup (~ 5-6 months) ...I don't know how he didn't get hit by a car ...it was NOT purchased with the intention to be used as a correction tool

I used it as a pager (for when we go running in an open field), not for corrections. I have a degree zoology (not a degree in how to pick up elephant $hit LOL, but 2 specialists including one in animal physiology, the other in animal behaviour).... so I just applied my "book knowledge" of classical and operant conditioning to pair the vibration of the page with me calling the dog (I worked with a long lead initially) and eventually got to the point where i didn't have to call him when he was off leash, I'd just hit "page" and he'd come running....

just note again...not used for correction! :)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

his solution was to deliver a maximum-volt shock after whatever behaviour I don't want him to do (ex. dog aggression) :eek:......I ran for the hills!!!

Some people should be sued for extremely bad impersonations of Trainers.....

[ISAPRESA]

I am confused, are you saying your dog went from timid to hard temperment in just over a month? :confused:


Stay away from both and try getting the dog to respect you first, not fear you - see what results you may get :)


She has always been a hard dog right from the start, she takes every little bit of punishment verbal or physical (putting her on her back) as a joke. as far as being timid its just of stranges objects and loud sounds as I pointed out in that post

[ISAPRESA]

The reason Why I brought up the E-Collar is because I have a bunch of leerburg videos, which i find quite informative and make sense, and one of the videos I have is the E-collar training video. I understand It could be dangerous if used in the wrong hands. the pager is a nice feature on the collars. I am a first time presa owner and was very aware of what I was getting myself into, I spend lots of time with my dog doing motivational training and working on pack structure as well as trying to ger her to respect me. but when I take her to the park to play tug she is biteing the tug and not me or if she sees any dogs near she gets uncontrollably crazy, I have been doing the training myself as well as taking her to one on one sessions once a month with an ex shutzhand/RCMP trainer who seems to offer good advice, He doesn't know much about the breed, but he always says shes a hard dog. I would not like to have to use and training collars if its not needed.

[genevieve]

Putting an e- collar on a dog that is timid is a step away from abuse. You need to be spending time building her confidence with new things, not zapping the crap out of her. I 100% guarantee that an e- collar will make this dog 100X worse.

E- collars should only be used on dogs that already know exactly what is being asked of them, such as high level OB/ Sch dogs. Anyone else who is using one is either lazy or abusive. Period. End of story.

Learn how to train and correct your dog properly from a trainer who doesn't use force as the first line of defense. Not only will it help your relationship but it will help her confidence as well.

Genevieve

[ISAPRESA]

Thanks Dennis and Darriana :)

[Darianna]

The reason Why I brought up the E-Collar is because I have a bunch of leerburg videos, which i find quite informative and make sense, and one of the videos I have is the E-collar training video. I understand It could be dangerous if used in the wrong hands. the pager is a nice feature on the collars. I am a first time presa owner and was very aware of what I was getting myself into, I spend lots of time with my dog doing motivational training and working on pack structure as well as trying to ger her to respect me. but when I take her to the park to play tug she is biteing the tug and not me or if she sees any dogs near she gets uncontrollably crazy, I have been doing the training myself as well as taking her to one on one sessions once a month with an ex shutzhand/RCMP trainer who seems to offer good advice, He doesn't know much about the breed, but he always says shes a hard dog. I would not like to have to use and training collars if its not needed.

no offense, but videos can't teach you how to train your dog....

[presasrus]

Ok I'll likely be jettisoned off the planet for this one, but what about getting a second dog? Back in the brief time when I just had the cane he was an ass even at that age, but along came the other and now I swear I have two of the best behaved boys around. A friend of mine in the community did the same and now all is well. Prior to that he had a dog that wanted to run all day (and he's a consultant from home, which doesn't mix...), was terrible on a leash, jumped all over people, etc., not to mention one last time at 11pm each night so I'm told and wouldn't let the house sleep unless he had a 45 min walk at that bloody hour. Every day. He was looking to re-home the dog, and this is after some big bucks on "training". Now with two, I don't want to be long winded but he is happy as heck, and so are the dogs. Ok so now flurry me with comments, I understand this isn't the preferred approach nor the only approach but I stand by it :) Brent what else is there to do out there in Sask?, get a second...:D

Is she super leash aggressive when walking? What does she do if you leash correct this and say "hey!" like you mean it? I am by no means a trainer, and have said this before but with very very basic things like this I broke mine very quick when he was a puller, and I mean a puller. Now when I walk both the second they apply tension and see a squirrel, another dog barking at them, etc., I say "stop!" just with voice alone and the leash goes limp again for both. If I had a "harder" dog I guess I would try this initially, and maybe pump up the volume a bit at that if I had to, but beyond that I'd be at a loss myself. So this is all that I can share, which isn't much I apologize.

Also, between a choke and a prong, and I know the question didn't reference a choke, but apparently German studies have confirmed anatomical neck damage after a choke, compared to a prong. 100 dogs were evaluated in this study. Food for thought maybe, if that was something you had thought about at all.

[jweissg]

like Dennis, I only used an e-collar for remote recall. Ares was 18 months or so before I tried it. I had tried 50 ft leads and he would recall perfectly every time. I tried it in fenced in baseball fields and he would recall perfectly. As soon as he was in a situation where he wasn't on lead or fenced in, he lost hearing or something.

He would heal off lead and stay right next to me, but if he got 30 feet away, he would only come back when he damn well pleased.

I KNEW that he KNEW what he was supposed to do. The problem was, he wouldn't do it. By continueing to give the recall command without a way to enforce it, I was undermining the training I had done.

I used an e-collar to finish training remote recall. Note, I said "finish training" remote recall. He knew it already, but this enforced it. Now, I can call him off of a deer at 100 yards without the e-collar.

The e-collar is not a punishment. If you don't have the balls to strap it to your own neck (literally) and shock yourself, then don't buy one. I did that and used it to determine the level I would use -- it wasn't much, I'm not that tough. I used a long, low level stimulation as I gave the command. As soon as Ares hit a trot on the way back to me, I released the stimulation.

Just my .02 -- not professional advice my any means.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

jwessg, you made me smile at your description of your experience with the distance recall, thanks, sounds like we went through the exact same thing.

[ozzy]

I have an e collar, I love it. I had ozzy in obedience traing @ 6 mnths he did great he progressed through his levels easly. no e-collar, he is a very protective dog not in a bad way but to be honest with ya if your on the property and you are uninvited you are escorted off right now.
he has bit once my wife had him at a neibours house were the son was an idiot. not knowing the dog he stratled ozzy put his face in ozzys face and beggan pounding on his chest, ozzy growled letting him know to back off the retard continued and was soon off to the hospital to have his nose packed. Ozzy had a e-collor on and without needing correction it was the one bit he got in and not any more.
What I am getting at is an e-collor can be a great tool when used properly. I tried a prong collor it was useless he did not respond no matter how hard the correction was.
When we walk with ozzy now we use the e-collor not because we are lazy because it works, use it properly. ozzy gets excited when you pull the collor out. and corrections are far and few between, it has an adjustmet setting on it his correction setting is 20 I tried it on myself and I can handle up to a 13.
So I think it is a great tool used properly. Hope I dont get hung for that but hey because I know how to use a certain tool and it works for me does not mean it works for everyone. thanks guys great question. hope this helps. in this picture not sure you can see the collor but its on it just dosnt bother him nor has it made him soft nor crazy.:)