Snap/Bite without warning

[jweissg]

My presa is almost 4 years old now.

About four months ago, my wife and I took him for a walk and ran into a group of people we don't know. Of course, he was on leash and he is well-behaved in public, just reserved of strangers. We explained that they could pet him, but don't lean down over him or get in his face. No sooner had we finished that warning, one of the women grabbed him on either side of the face and bent down to put her face into his. He reacted with a snap to her face -- one puncture on her lip and a bruise. Not a "bite" as we all know that a real bite would have been more substantial.

More recently, we had a family emergency and he had to accompany us out of state. We took his crate and only took him out when he was supervised to get some excersize, etc. We were there for one day. When everyone was gone, I took him out to let him run a bit. As he was cooling off, everyone (15 people or so) came home. In the process of putting him away, another woman asked to pet him. I offered the EXACT same warning and she did the EXACT same thing. I saw him starting to react and immediately intervened. No snap this time, but it was seconds away.

I can "understand" both of those situations. I cannot expect him to be accepting of a complete stranger approaching him like that.

Most recently (last night), my wife and I were watching TV. He was laying under our feet up against the couch. As she always does, she leaned over to pet him/kiss him. He has never shown and issues with this before. He was sleeping/laying and leaned up and snapped at her! I have been killing myself trying to figure it out. We constantly lay on him, lean over him, put our faces in his, etc. We worked through all food possession issues, dominance issues, etc when he was a puppy/adolescent. He has never reacted like that before. The only possible explanations that I can think of is that he was startled. My wife says that he leaned his face up to look at her first and then snapped, so I don't think he was startled. She went down to kiss him and, to make the noise that she makes while kissing him, she draws her lips back. Maybe it looked like she was going to bite him or something? Either way, that is certainly not an acceptable reaction. It is especially troublesome that we cannot identify why he reacted like that.

I have a good idea of some of the responses I am going to get. I have thought of those solutions myself. From all I know about dogs, this does not make sense and is completely inconsistent with his other behaviors.

Any ideas?

[LawrenceandHaney]

Sorry to read this. A male Presa will challenge from time to time especially an intact one.

He has snapped at 3 females now? Maybe he has a problem with females. Is he sick at all, sore, or has there been another incident that may have shaken his confidence or elevated his aggression?

For now he should not be around strangers that is for sure ...nor should they be anywhere near his face.

I am curious to know what steps you took when he growled at your wife?

Keep us updated

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Massive Pinch collar correction and hang him hard and hang him high, the instant he behaves that way. You dont just deal with dominance issues once, it is a continual thing with dogs of strong temperament. Continue to do all the non-compulsive things to enforce your roll and your wife's roll but with a snap, I'd make him understand in no uncertain terms it is not behavior that will be tolerated. The potential to hurt someone badly even with just a snap and the liability to you is to great. That same scenario happens to someone who wants to make a little easy money and you willl be hating things for along time.

[jweissg]

Thanks guys for the replies.

It has been all females he has snapped at. I thought about that. The best correlation I could draw was that the men listen (sorry girls) when I tell them not to get in his face. Women tend to have the "aww, he's so cute" reaction more than men. Was that p.c. enough?

The funny thing is that we have one woman who visits/stays at the house once/week and he is great with her. She is one who doesn't get in his face though.

Health-wise was another thing that I was thinking about. He still runs around like he is a puppy -- even at 4 years old. In the last 4 months, he has been constipated to the point that he had to have a manual enema (3.5 months ago). It happened again about 3 weeks ago and we had him nuetered while that was being taken care of. The vet checked him for all signs of cancer, etc and came up with no other concerns. I know that I am not a vet, but his other behavior does not indicate that he is sick -- he acts like his old self 99.99% of the time.

When he snapped at her it took me about 3-4 seconds to realize what had happened/check her out/administer a correction. He was between the table and the sofa. I just pinned him against the love seat/floor with my hands/body and verbally corrected him very harshly. He moped around the house for the next few hours/this morning.

Steel, what exactly do you mean by "to do all the non-compulsive things to enforce your roll and your wife's roll but with a snap."

I know that it is unacceptable, but do you see this as a dominance issue? By the time I got to him to correct him, he was already hanging his head a bit with tail tucked, etc. He won't eat if my wife or I are in the room and standing up. He will roll over onto his back if we approach him and he is laying down. I don't see any other dominant behavior traits in him.

I have been tring to induce some sort of reaction by re-creating similar events and have gotten NO response. I have gotten down in his face and made kissing noises, etc. Obviously, I have done this in such a position that I could react quickly and powerfully if necessary.

I am curious if he has adopted this as a way to communicate that he doesn't want someone in his face at that given moment.

Obviously, my wife is a little bit shaken. She is going to start doing the training with him for 15-20 minutes/day -- hopefully that will serve as therapy for both of them.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks again

[presasrus]

Back in my volunteer days for dog rescue, I had a terrible experience with a female dog although it was all my fault. Prior to the incident, I had spent many hours with her, walked her, treated her, ran with her, pet her, sat with her, BUT when I leaned over to give her a quick peck on the forehead my christ I saw a different dog. Fortunately I reacted fast and was in position to otherwise I would have been permanently disfigured to say the least. I never would have guessed, but then again didn't know her past and had no business doing that even in the so called comfort I felt at the time, and to that point had handled two hundred rescue dogs easy, and most with ballistic temperaments. So you never know. Maybe it was a female dog-male handler thing, maybe she just didn't like anyone near her face, who knows. After that I still handled her, and all was well, but never again tried the face thing after that one time. Given your observations already, I would advise not letting people try this with your dog at all. Someone could get hurt bad, and you could end up financially ruptured for life. Tell people to limit their affection to a hand pat, or treat, etc. I really can't advise you on training at all like the others here as they are much more experienced than I am, but what I can do is remind you to protect your wallet with all this in mind going forward.

[LawrenceandHaney]

When I had problems with my Male Slamm gave me some advice that stuck with me.

Besides the training, establishing pecking order, obedience, etc etc....at the end of the day the owner and dog have to respect each other. It could very well be that your Male doesn't want people in his face despite nice intentions. I personally wouldn't want it. The may be the paradox..he nips not bites that is definietlt a warning.. Trust me if a dog (Presa especially) is acting out and means business they bite I have the scars to prove this.

Like Dennis said the correction should be immediate but quick. He seems to know he did something wrong. From the outside looking in this looks more like a personality issue he just doesn't like it and in the end maybe that should be respected the same way you teach him to respect the fact that your food is not his etc.

Tough call either way. If I'm you nobody goes face to face with him...does that change things?

From what I've learned a Presa is a dominant strong dog. Personality aside when they are upset they will show it. To what degree depends on set personality and a particular dog's socialization.

My humble opinion

[jweissg]

I thought about that. Maybe he just doesn't like people in his face. I don't know why he is just starting (at 4 years old), to show it. Raising him, we were very methodical to make sure that he was ok being touched, pulled, pushed, prodded, poked....you get the idea. When it comes to the pack (me, my wife, and him) he has always been completely pliable and gentle.

My wife definately has a different approach to him and his discipline than I do. He out-weighs her. When he needs a correction, she will pull back from him a bit whereas I always correct him moving forward. We will work on that too. I do rough house with him sometimes and he will mouth me (not out right bite me). I should stop that and enforce that teeth contact is not ok at all. We never walk around him if he is laying on the floor -- we either make him get up or walk over him (it is a stretch but I can see where walking around your dog could be perceived as submissive). Can anyone think of any other common activities that I should be careful of?

His worst behavior trait aside from this is that he will get a bit hyper and run circles in the house and you have to physically stop him. He is a GREAT dog (and I have had a few).

I agree that none of these incidents have been full on aggressive bites. There would be much more damage than there is.

My wife trained with him today for 20-30 minutes and said he was great.

We are a young couple (25). Looking forward to having kids, I don't know that he will be able to continue to be part of the family. I know you never leave kids and dogs alone together, but, being that he has shown a tendency that I don't fully understand (and, thus, cannot train it out of him), I don't know that it would be appropriate to have him in a house with kids. That is 3-5 years away, so we have some time before that is an immediate issue.

[Darianna]

the first time I read your post I thought that perhaps your dog just didn't like getting stared down with face-to-face eye contact....given that it's a challenge of dominance...I know of several dogs that react in a similar fashion when somebody locks eyes with them ....but it's hard to say in your situation


I also think that when somebody is bending down to your dog, you may be emitting a feeling of anxiety that your dog is picking up on.. this may also be one of the triggers that causes him to "snap". you might consciously or unconsciously be aware of the anxiety, but I bet you have some apprehensions, given the first indicent (it's only human,... at that moment, you don't want a repeat situation)....and he as a result may be picking up on it

what i would do is exactly what you are doing....get back into training and reestablish yours and your wife's dominant position. i think that's your best bet for success.:)

best of luck to you!

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Google: "How to handle dominance issues. A good list of non-compulsive (no physical punishment) actions you can take, i.e. never letting the dog on furniture, not giving him/her treats out of affection, making him/her earn your etc...

and this behavior is not necessarily a dominance issue either, a good trainer (Would be a good idea to find a very good trainer/behaviorlist and let them evaluate your dog. Hard to interpet things accurately over the internet) would have to see the behavior for themselves, I am not a good trainer, I have learned some, but as they say the more one learns the more one realizes one dont know much. Formerly abused dogs will exhibit the same behavior if they dont have an out and someone puts there face close and above them, you would not want to use strong physical corrections in this case, but sounds like you have had your dog from pup and have treated him well.
http://leerburg.com/dominac2.htm
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/taming.html (http://www.inch.com/%7Edogs/taming.html)
note: if your training your dog for protection and using the tug as a reward, some of the things they list do not apply.

[Presapaisbajos]

Your wife putting her face at his this way, is like a pup showing submissiveness to a higher in rank. Maybe she was not licking his lips and wagging her tail very low, but the low in rank always shows this RESPECT to a higher in rank.

What your wife is doing literary is forcing him to be top dog and he did what a top dog does when he does not want to be disturbed.....Snarl and "telling" LEAVE ME THE HECK ALONE I AM SLEEPING!

So imo, the dog did not do anything wrong. He is just confused of who is boss in your family. You? maybe.... The wife sure is not, she is acting like a lower rank member and puts him up front with her behaviour.

She or maybe the whole family should do him a great favour and ignore him for at least three weeks. No laying at the couch, but at his own corner in the room, no petting or playing we HE asks for it, but always initiated by you or your wife and ended by you or your wife. He needs to be shown his place again and that at the BOTTOM of the pack.

Steel, I am not a big fan of the chain in this case. It could make things worse. "Biting" his neck in not how he would be corrected by a higher rank in this case. A higher rank dog would not even bother to even interfere because the dog is not out of his league. He was "just" correcting a lower in rank.
To "make" a dog lower in rank you have to take away privilages, ignore him he is not even worth to walk in your shadow!! Dont put him away from the family but act like he is not around. No petting, no playing, no sweet words, last to come in and last to come out of the door/house/car.

I work very closely with a dog therapist for a year now and I have seen huge changes in dogs who had problems like this. HUGE!!

Good luck;)

[Presapaisbajos]

Google: "How to handle dominance issues. A good list of non-compulsive (no physical punishment) actions you can take, i.e. never letting the dog on furniture, not giving him/her treats out of affection, making him/her earn your etc...

and this behavior is not necessarily a dominance issue either, a good trainer (Would be a good idea to find a very good trainer/behaviorlist and let them evaluate your dog. Hard to interpet things accurately over the internet) would have to see the behavior for themselves, I am not a good trainer, I have learned some, but as they say the more one learns the more one realizes one dont know much. Formerly abused dogs will exhibit the same behavior if they dont have an out and someone puts there face close and above them, you would not want to use strong physical corrections in this case, but sounds like you have had your dog from pup and have treated him well.
http://leerburg.com/dominac2.htm
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/taming.html (http://www.inch.com/%7Edogs/taming.html)
note: if your training your dog for protection and using the tug as a reward, some of the things they list do not apply.



Great reads btw Steel thanks.:)