Presa Testing

[Hankdad]

I have heard a rumor about a Presa Canario Breed Suitablilty Test obedience with some protection testing as well. The obedience must be passed before the dog can get to the protection work.
My question to the board is, what do you all think of this type of test? Would it be something that you all welcome to really set apart just Presas and then Breeding stock PRESAS?

Hankdad

[presasrus]

Breeding stock would require more than just passing tests though, what about hip scores, age, etc.? The testing would have to mean something too, with bars set fairly high, otherwise the whole thing may be misleading. Also, if this is to be a presa-only system, what will be in place to exclude other dogs that look like a presa, that of course aren't? What if I show up with a neapolitan mastiff-pit or corso something or other and pass your tests, then start selling pups out of these champion presa-tested dogs that I have? Just sharing thoughts.

[genevieve]

Been discussed before- while a noble idea, most of the breeders out there can't be bothered to PennHIP their dogs let alone train for an OB test... Not saying that is right, just saying that is how it is...

Genevieve

[presagirls]

Hankdad, our IAPC club has been testing Presas and now UKC has the Dog Sport which has about 6 levels?? I will be attending the Dog Sport at Redstar next weekend and will test my young female with the IAPC temperament test. I am curious what this test is you talk about???

[Juan00]

Handkad,

You and I have shared posts over at the banter, but it's been sometime since that happened. Anyhow, I haven't heard of this test that you mentioned, but it would be a great test to have. :)

Unfortunately, this type of test probably will never gain any strength (although I think having a BST for the Presa that covers ob, protection, social temperament, endurance, and other desirable Presa traits would be awesome to implement and standardize) because of several factors.

First there is the Presa politics thing that always looms. Every breed has their fair share of politics, and they are omnipresent in the Presa community as well. So, if say someone affiliated with Kennel X wrote up this BST and wanted hips and health screened for as well, kennel Y & Z would not go with that because of past politics.

Second, even if some of the WORKING breeders would agree to have this BST and abide by it, I am certain that the overwhelming majority of breeders out there would not want to meet all these demands before breeding. It takes money, time, and knowledge to put ob and protection into a dog...and most presa breeders don't want to invest on meeting specific breeding requirements, because they would mi$$ out on $elling puppie$ to the masses. I've heard all the excuses before as to why people don't test their dogs out on the trial field. Excuses like, "Sch is a GSD test," or "all the ringsports are too herder oriented," or "there should be tests that test a presas abilities," or "I know what I have so I don't need to prove it to others," or "my trainers said this and this about my Presa, so I don't need to prove it to anyone else since my trainer knows my dogs so well." The excuses are endless and boundless and never seize to amaze me. Nothing is going to get handed to you, so if one owns a Presa and wants to trial, then one has to play the game of the shepherds (FR, SCH, PSA, MR, etc.) It's that simple, and no amount of complaining is going to change things in the near future.

Third, the presa, IMO, is in danger of becoming a show dog. Too many people out there are not testing their dogs, and even though the Presa has gained in popularity, there are far to many breeders out there that are cranking out mediocre or poor working presa specimens based on "show quality" specimens.

I am of the opinion that no kennel has a monopoly on good to great working presas. However, the breeders out there that are consistently testing and proving their dogs on the trial field and with health tests administered, are very few indeed. The handlers (not breeders or kennels) that are out there trialing there Presas are very few as well. I give ANYONE high praise for as much as stepping onto the trial field, if one can succeed in any way shape or form in a trial...then I'm always thrilled to here that a Presa team did well.

The majority of Presa owners are neophyte dog handlers (in terms of working dogs). The majority Presa owners that want to work their Presas are new to protection sports and the protection world. They quickly find out that others don't respect the Presa as a working dog, and if they have bad dogs, then they get disenchanted with Presas in general. Of those few that actually want to work their presas, some decide to give up on the breed and get themselves a mal or another type of shepherd in order to compete at a very high level. It's cool, as they could do whatever they want, but it's a simple fact that very few Presa owners are competing with their dogs and succeeding because of various reasons.

So, with all this mentioned, although it's my dream that someday the Presa would be looked at a consistent and capable working dog, I simply don't see many breeders that would adhere to all that it would take to produce healthy, sound, stable, working Presas and have it proven to the public.

[presagirls]

Excellent post Juan.......I couldn't have said it better and I agree 100%!!!

[Kiroman]

Very well put, I can speak from personal experience as far as being a presa owner being a neophyte to working sports. I did what research I could, read as many books, watched many videos, and spoke to many folks to get an idea of what I was getting myself into. Now I am by no means blaming the dog I had, but from what I have been told by others, he was not a fine working specimen. Also, I was not prepared for the style of raising a working pup as well a a very solid family dog. I am by no means not saying one can not have both, but it was not something I could do, maybe it was me (probably) or the particular dog.

You are not going to convince the produces of dogs who have no desire or do not feel the need to title a dog. Everyone has their own reasons...

[Hankdad]

Thank you for your responses, I have just heard that the test is coming down the pipe from the UPPCC. I am interested in what people within the El Presa board would think of it. I am of the school of thought that if there is something, it is better than nothing. I do think a lot of people will not get invovled with the test but that is just the thing from what I understand is this test or tests would help the serious Presa breeder with true intent on keeping the dogs a working breed help pick out dogs that can do these things as well as help breeders of dogs that they think can do these things dip their toe into the working side of the dogs.
Within the GSD there is working and show line dogs, and it flourishes so why not within the Presa? I think that the line is blurred a ton with the GSD as well.Some how dogs that work well and some working dogs that show well. Having these tests out there and available may bring more people into the realization that there is a test or tests that the Presa has to help prove stock and if so be the working dog people within the breed can go to the pedigrees or look at the titles/certs and say the dog may not have a Schutzhund 1-3 or FR 1-3 but the dog has passed some base tests that shows it has some heart, socialability, and control.
I think you have to really start somewhere and then work your way up. Start to demand more of the breed and the breeders. Like health testing, and work testing. I realize that his is not a perfect world but lets keep the breed a working breed like Juan said and not just a big show breed.
JMHO, they don't have to be anyone elses.LOL

Hankdad
BTW, not familiar with IAPC, what is that?

[presagirls]

"I have just heard that the test is coming down the pipe from the UPPCC"

This says VOLUMES of WTH......this is the group that had to be recognized by UKC and does the least; except breed puppies, and is trying to be accepted by AKC. I will stick with other venues to test my dogs.....Interesting; especially since Richard had negative comments about protection training Presas a few years ago...........must be a scheme to sell more dogs!

Hankdad, have you seen the different levels of Dog Sport with UKC?
http://www.servicedogsofamerica.com/

IAPC is: http://www.iapconline.net/

Unfortunately website has not been updated but this is a active organization. We meet at least twice a year to test dogs; discuss working venues, discuss breeding dogs, etc. to promote the working ability of Presas.......

[Hankdad]

Yes, I am very aware of the SDA rules and regs.
I just had not heard of the IPCA.
It seems like a solid organization that is headed in the right direction.

I am not sure about any of the stuff with Richard however I do think that there are people within the UPPCC that work their dogs and strive to have a working line of Presas. If that is not the case with all the people I can say it is not the case with all people in any breed.
I think this is a step in the right direction for the UPPCC and making this available for their members is good for the breed just like the IAPC is good for the breed. If it all comes to be then there will be at least the option for people within the UPPCC. I do think that this shows growth for the org and on Richard's part, don't you?

I am like you I want to see a working breed be a working breed so to have the test available and there for people to take part in is a step in the right direction as far as I see it. To be able to go to a UPPCC show and even enlighten the breeders to the fact that a BST or a test is out there is making progress however slow it is.

I was contacted about being a judge for the test so this was my reason for posting this in the first place. I was curious about what the reaction amongst the Presa people would be. I was curious and some of you have given me my answers. When the test is finalized I will post it up and then we can have a open discussion about it here.
I will either be a judge or not be a judge. It will be interesting to find out what you all have to say about it and what you think needs to added or subtracted for the good of the breed.

Hankdad

[Johnny]

Hankdad there are other people besides us at the IAPC trying to help the breed. The WDCA holds working test at every USA Mongrafica. Heres a link to the 3rd level. http://wdcaonline.com/ccf3.htm

http://wdcaonline.com/ccf3.htm

It's also a really good test. When we started the IAPC, it was with the same goals that you speak of, but as Juan has alluded too, there are very few takers. It just requires too much work and it's easier for people to live with the fantasy that their dog is breed quality.

Any venue, from PP events, Irondog, etc. that gets dogs off their properties and challenged with a threat is a postive step. I just prefer to test my dogs in recognized sports with unbiased judges like Sch. Ring, UKC, etc.

I really thought with all the Presa people over here that UKC would be their thing, but so far it seems like there is very little excitement. These are the same people that will fight to the death over the name Presa, but cannot get out and show the world that Presas are indeed worthy of their reputation.

I say good luck to you and the event, but don't expect a large number of dogs to pass.

[Hankdad]

Johnny, Juan, and all involved. I am already a CCF judge. I did one in May in KS. I was the person judging that event that I posted about the Presa Kilo. I was just saying that there was another test coming that I heard about and will most likely be highly involved with. I like the CCF test. I always encourage people to work working breeds. They where originally bred to do the work so please keep it going.
Juan, the dog you like a lot Kilo, is one of the best working Presas in the country. I am supposed to go back out to KS coming up and work him more. I am trying to track down more pix for you. He is a damn good worker despite really not being in a true working dog persons hands. She has made herself and dedicated herself to her dog because of his potential. Her goal is Sch 3 and I do think they will make it to the goal. I will help her as much as possible to get there too.
The dog in question has a Schutzhund BH, CCF1-3, CAL1-3, CGC, TDI, and will no doubt in my mind have soon: PSA PDC, Sch 1, and most likely higher than that. He also has come in no lower than 3rd in every hardest hitting contest he has ever entered. The dog is a beast of a worker.

I just wanted to let some people know that there was going to be a test thru the UPPCC and you all will most likely be able to list it on your Ped papers.

Hope this clears this up. I want to see as many Presas and handlers on the trial field as possible and hope I can help facilitate that in any way I can.
Hankdad

[Randy]

??

[Juan00]

??

CCF = Cetificado del Caracter Funcional (Certificate of Functional Character)
http://www.wdcaonline.com/ccf1.htm

[Landon]

Randy knows what the test is, I believe he is one of the people that "designed" it. I think he was wondering why/what Hankdad was refering to when he said he was a CCF judge? As far as I know, Jen and Randy are the two people in charge of that. (but I could be wrong)

[Juan00]

Randy knows what the test is, I believe he is one of the people that "designed" it. I think he was wondering why/what Hankdad was refering to when he said he was a CCF judge? As far as I know, Jen and Randy are the two people in charge of that. (but I could be wrong)

I assumed if it was THAT Randy, that he would be more thorough in his questioning and not leave it open for interpretation. Therefore, I figured it was another Randy, and simply asking what CCF stood for. That's what I get for assuming. :)

[Randy]

my bad guys, was going to make a post asking hank dad to get back to jen with the rest of the info and clarify some things. something poped up and i could not leave the box blank.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I gave my presas an algebra test, they failed miserably, I guess they are not breed quality, I am going to give them a grammar test next.

[Juan00]

I gave my presas an algebra test, they failed miserably, I guess they are not breed quality, I am going to give them a grammar test next.


Dennis, why the sarcasm? Just curious as to why you unleashed this sarcastic take on a thread that has been a sound and productive thread in regards to bettering the breed?

IMO, I think it shows a lack of respect to people like Hankdad that are out there trying to improve the breed via a BST. Are any of the Presa BSTs as tough or difficult as say...PSA or French Ring? No, but it's better than nothing, and they are all steps in the right direction that will help the breed improve as a working breed.

Obviously, you can speak/type your mind until it's content, cool. But I just wish that you would use all the knowledge you've gained these last few years and bring more positive takes and insight, so that we ALL can learn from each other and help the Presa breed as whole.

I know that you and I have many common views and philosophies when it comes to working dogs and Presas. Trust me on this, we do. But if this breed is going to continue to exist as a working breed, and NOT turn into a show breed (the way you, I, and others fear), then the only way to keep it's working heritage alive and well is for all of us to work together instead of continually degrading and sniping at each other.

Ever since I came back in here and starting posting in here, I told myself I would do so in a more positive manner. Let bygones be bygones, and bring a positive attitude as much as I could on my posts. Hopefully, one day you can do the same.

[Juan00]

Hankdad,

From what I hear of Kilo, he sounds like a very good working Presa. Also, from what his owner told me, for the better part of his early life she didn't do anything with him except do basic pet ob with him. He's got a CGC and is a certified therapy dog, and is supposed to have a great on and off switch, and a great social temperament. That says a lot about his disposition, innate working ability, and it's a great story all-around.

Also, I read your posts in the past regarding Kilo and they were all with glowing reviews, so that's great info to know as well. Kilo's owner doesn't come in here and pimp herself, so it's good that her friend and yourself can give us tidbits and updates as to how he's progressing.

I always give kudos to ANYONE who works, competes, trials, or does positive things with their presas. As such, I wanted to ask you, and please pardon my ignorance, how did you become involved with the breed? I know that you're an AB guy, but do you have a Presa yourself? If not, hopefully you can get one and title it, because in my opinion, the Presa breed needs more experienced and knowledgeable owners/trainers like yourself to help improve the growing curve in terms of the breeds working ability. Also, this would help the breeds exposure in the working world, that would add to what others have already done.

At any rate, it's good to know that other trainers like yourself are taking an interest in the breed one way or another. Job well done.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Dennis, why the sarcasm? Just curious as to why you unleashed this sarcastic take on a thread that has been a sound and productive thread in regards to bettering the breed?

Your making a lot of assumptions and false deductions. I'm an associative thinker so I spun off the idea of "testing" and what testing means in different contexts and put one venue of testing into the context of dogs. Basically and simply humor..

Any assumptions of my intent being negative are asinine and possibly conveniently self-serving to make.

[J@ckson]

Your making a lot of assumptions and false deductions. I'm an associative thinker so I spun off the idea of "testing" and what testing means in different contexts and put one venue of testing into the context of dogs. Basically and simply humor..

Any assumptions of my intent being negative are asinine and possibly conveniently self-serving to make.If a dog pisses on the same patch of grass 9 times in a row, it's safe to assume where the 10th will be.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Your right, 9 wrong Assumptions so a 10th wrong assumption should not be a surprise......;)

Never judge a person's motivation unless they have stated what the motivation is. Ask what their motivation is. There are no psychics. If they refuse then you know something more is up and are fair game.

If a standard unweighted coin is flipped 9 times lands tails 9 times in a row, what is the chance it will land heads the 10th flipped?

...........answer ,, it's still a 50 percent proposition.. basic probability.......

Only lower forms of life are conditioned
significantly by someone's repeat behavior and assumed motivation..... some people salivate when you ring a bell....... that Pavlov guy an understanding of dog behavior and some types of people apparently......

[Kiroman]

priceless...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

priceless...

Thanks for the compliment on my response Kiroman....

[J@ckson]

Your right, 9 wrong Assumptions so a 10th wrong assumption should not be a surprise......;)

Never judge a person's motivation unless they have stated what the motivation is. Ask what their motivation is. There are no psychics. If they refuse then you know something more is up and are fair game.

If a standard unweighted coin is flipped 9 times lands tails 9 times in a row, what is the chance it will land heads the 10th flipped?

...........answer ,, it's still a 50 percent proposition.. basic probability.......

Only lower forms of life are conditioned
significantly by someone's repeat behavior and assumed motivation..... some people salivate when you ring a bell....... that Pavlov guy an understanding of dog behavior and some types of people apparently......So you're saying that every time you post there's a 50% chance you're going to say something stupid?

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

So you're saying that every time you post there's a 50% chance you're going to say something stupid?Not saying that at all, thanks for asking and not assuming........, and if I am repeating something you said, then there is a 90 percent chance......:D

Seriously though back to the topic, its nice that people have at least some "testing" criteria for breed worthiness, but what if a dog that failed could pass with a little training and pass with good form? and are their more viable tests of a dogs confidence than having their prey drive appealed to and just biting a sleeve?