some new videos of tristan

[presasur]

nice to watch..he is being started gradually..Aguila is also on these videos..she is a los bimbaches bitch.


http://es.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=presascanarios

[george]

Tristan is an amazing pup!!This dog has a great future!!I love to see King Zulu dogs!
Thanks Lu!! ;)

[presasur]

Mustang has rarely been out of his enviroment,he is being started to work,,and nacho a nice presa,sire of fedor..Apolo is out of mustang.

http://es.youtube.com/user/presascanarios

Apart from coto,most of these dogs havent had any formal training,it was just a get together with some friends..In one of the videos we can see urco ,brocks litter brother.

[Zhenya]

Bit my tongue the first time around when the Tristan videos were put up but can't hold it any longer. So sad it's not even funny. The helper work is devastating, the handler work is non-existent. ALL the dogs are stressed and worked so heavily in defense the only future Tristan will see is the one of Mustang-the dog is scared sh!#less and works solely in flight or fight (and half the time he prefers to fly).

but what do I know.

[presasrus]

Just asking, not looking to make enemies, trust me. In one video, I noticed that you chased the guy with Tristan on a leash. What does the chase aspect do? I know nothing about this type of training, just asking, but in my mind after the reaction is seen, why follow that up with a controlled chase? Second, in the Mustang video, I noticed the gentleman tapping Mustang with the stick after the reaction was seen, why? If he reacts to this test, then why continue and keep stimulating, with him secured to a tree like that? It looked like the tester was overstimulating him, and this in my limited opinion may leave his poor nerves shot to shit if this type of thing is a habit. Wouldn't it? So again, not looking to light a fire here, just asking. Forgive me if this is read as such. Just observation.

[presasur]

this is urco kenny,,brocks litter brother,we´ll try to get him on a better video next time we get together..As for mustang ,he was simply trying to bite the rope to get loose.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

The dogs are in not working in defense or anywhere near going into avoidance. I would not call it good training however.

[Kiroman]

ALL the dogs are stressed and worked so heavily in defense...

The dogs are in not working in defense or anywhere near going into avoidance.

Ok, so who is wrong? I am learning all this and many of you know way about this than me. Who is right? To me this is not something that is debatable

Not trying to start crap all, just want to know to better understand training

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Find a trainer in Chicago or the East Coast that does old school (and not good) defensive training and you will know the difference.

Like pulling a dogs head tight to a chain link fence by pulling his leash through the fence and standing on the other side, while a decoy flanks the dog and otherwise "stimulates" (sic) him/her.............

[Kiroman]

not really the answer I was looking for. I am talking about i the context of modern standard prey / defensive training. I am sure it can be much worse, but in that video obviously you guys (and gals) saw something completely opposite, and while there are always personal interpretations, someone is off on this subject

[presasrus]

Again, I'm hardly knowledgeable on training like this and defer to others on the board, but if, and not saying I'm remotely on the right track here, if basic stimulus-response applies, then why continue stimulating long after the reaction? Once the response is seen, why keep on, why not move on to something different? Does the repetition drill it in physiologically any better? I'm asking seriously, not being sarcastic.

[Zhenya]

Here's my take on this.

Take the Mustang video for example. Step by step. The threatening decoy approaches, and the dog is turning his entire body away ("trying to bite the rope"-right, right I just read about something along those fantasy lines-the dog was "gestured not to follow up and come back find the owner later" jeebus) this is a clear sign of conflict right there. If the dog is looking to fight he fights.

The entire posture of the dog is subdued (tail's tucked, head's down)-ready to flight. The rope doesn't let him. Then the dog is stimulated-this is not a picture of the dog working happily. Nervous, sporadic barks, constant backing up (there's no luring in because there wasn't even an attempt of engagement yet), relatively low carrying of the tail (along the back line not happy curled up), the dog's nearly crazy-snapping at everything he can flush his frustration on (stick), can't take the frontal pressure turning his head side ways, backing up. Finally the bite. It is typical "I have been sitting under the table and you are still coming-snap", grabed the sleeve went into avoidance again.

I do not blame the dog - why the hell would you brind the fight to the dog he can't possibly win. Why hit the dog with the stick while it's tied to the tree from afar and doesn't need any more stimulation? Sick.

The list goes on and on with every dog. the reason tristan is controlled leashed on a chase is because too much stress on the pup didn't teach him to bite away from the owner (as was demonstrated in the earlier videos-given the chance he "chased" the bad guy on the stack of dog food but never followed through).

Aguila-the short sends are pathetic. The entire purpose of the send with the drag in is to slow the dog down to direct it on the bite. While go into so much trouble to give the dog the sh!##y frontal bite on the corner of the sleeve (again the sign of stress and avoidance).

Nacho-again frontal bites, dog's trying to find a refuge in the won equipment and only switches back to the helper when stung by the stick. not good. Also could have been an accident or bad handling but the dog nearly backed off his collar during the agitation. hard to judge who messed up.

And of course horrible handlers work - not playing the "pole" or a "tree" as advised as a result decoy is afraid for his safety and hands out horrible sleeve presentations and actually almost never puts the proper pressure on the dog during the bite (when the dog can recon and enjoy the fight ) but preferes to beat the dog up with the stick first and then give a dog a vent bite.

Gotta hand it to the dogs-they still somehow manage to pull through to wow the ignorant but if my "friend" came to play with the dogs with the sleeve cover slipping off the sleeve I'd fire up the grill and lock the dogs away, far from this "trainer".

but then again I am not a trainer and it's their dogs.

[Juke]

They took all the video down!!! lol im not the best decoy but im can read dogs alot better than that. Mustang is gonna b broken if not already but tthat. Sad that it cant been seen that the dog is truly stressed. All the rest were takin down b4 i could view them. LOL

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Take the Mustang video for example. Step by step. The threatening decoy approaches, and the dog is turning his entire body away ("trying to bite the rope"-right, right I just read about something along those fantasy lines-the dog was "gestured not to follow up and come back find the owner later" jeebus) this is a clear sign of conflict right there. If the dog is looking to fight he fights.

The dog would not have the rope stretched out towards the decoy if it were trying to get away. There is plenty of rope and room that if the dog was trying to "get away" from the decoy, it would be moving away to the other side of the tree, this is not what it is doing. Is there conflict? Yes. Dog looks a little confused but is not going into avoidance. You want to know for sure what the conflict is about, take off the rope totally

[Zhenya]

Dennis, you were given your chance to bite. Instead you made a meaningless high pitched noise and then snapped at something else, i.e., went into avoidance. Of which, after that many years of training, you learned that the only sign is to hide behind the tree. I feel sorry for your dogs then.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Dennis, you were given your chance to bite. Instead you made a meaningless high pitched noise and then snapped at something else, i.e., went into avoidance. Of which, after that many years of training, you learned that the only sign is to hide behind the tree. I feel sorry for your dogs then.Ok, your the expert...........

[Kiroman]

Ok, your the expert...........

and you are???:confused:

Zhenya made a decent case for her point at least.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

and you are???:confused:Someone who does not know anything apparently.

I concede to Zhenya who has trained and protection titled her dogs in real protection events and more importantly trained and titled other people's dogs.

I said what I wanted to say. It's not worth arguing or discussing.

[Kiroman]

I concede to Zhenya who has trained and protection titled her dogs in real protection events and more importantly trained and titled other people's dogs.

I said what I wanted to say. It's not worth arguing or discussing.

And what have to titled? your dogs or others? You act like she has no clue what she is talking about and you do.

It is worth discussing, as some of us are not experts and would like to learn the difference. I would like to know how to tell the difference of dogs acting in defense / avoidance. You guys blatantly disagree on something that is rather black and white...I think

Could someone who know please explain

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

And what have to titled? your dogs or others? You act like she has no clue what she is talking about and you do.


You need to read for comprehension. I have not stated what I have done with my dogs, so just say I have not done anything with my dogs, and that is why I conceded to someone who has.... apparently.

[Minestrone]

That was all like really weird.

[LawrenceandHaney]

Not how I train necessarily. I see some green dogs here. I have to say though, Mustang does not seem scared to me. I see a dog reacting to a threat then having to deal with the tightening of the rope. I watched the video several times I don't see a tucked tail either.

In my humble opinion the dog is doing what most Presas in that situation with that level of training should do. Of course it is all up for interpretation.

Lawrence

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Not how I train necessarily. I see some green dogs here. I have to say though, Mustang does not seem scared to me. I see a dog reacting to a threat then having to deal with the tightening of the rope. I watched the video several times I don't see a tucked tail either.I see you know as little as I do.;)

Not how I train necessarily. Not much training if any going on, this is not an insult, many people agitate dogs, even have cards claiming to be "dog trainers", charge people good money etc. and don't know what on earth they are doing. I don't think the guys in the video claim to be professional dog trainers and are not charging anyone money, they are just doing what they know right now. We all can learn alot and keep on learning.

[Zhenya]

C'mon Boyz,

I watched the video several times I don't see a tucked tail eitherThere is plenty of rope and room that if the dog was trying to "get away" from the decoy, it would be moving awayhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/Evgeshka/th_short1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v226/Evgeshka/?action=view&current=short1.flv)

I hate doing this because actually this is about the people not about the dogs in this particular case. Tristan does look like a lively pup and I have no doubt that the rest of the dogs in the kennel were selected according to the same high standards. But this is not what you see on the vid. Therefore people their methods are to blame.

Dennis:

I have typed like a page of stuff on all you cling to is the "tail tucking". And fake quoting of "getting away" although I never used such a word combination in my post (and even more frustrating that the dog IS trying to get away and IS tail tucking. or at least this is not the tail posture I am used to seeing in a presa with 4-5 other dogs 20 feet away from him and a guy with a stick. yet you somehow don't see it)

Dennis do not play coy, ok. You have gotten a PDC with Elija wich actually acomplishment-wise puts you in the top 0.1% of the presa owners. The reason I snapped is that although some useful stuff is shining through your posts, your manner of flip-floping, and taking threads off topic, and clinging to the partial statements made by others is simply irritating. What kind of person consistently makes threads called "Off topic" in the main forum although there's an off-topic forum? Oh well, nobody's perfect- I am spending my time typing this.

You advise people to read for comprehention while your own seems to be lacking. Every post on the subject I finished with humble words of how little I know and that I am not a trainer, yet you still manage to pull the STUPIDEST -"where's your acomplishment" card.

Firstly, it is just an OPINION which doesn't require any qualifications. You take it or you don't. You were given the chance to express yours yet you chose to do something different and keep on barking about it for 4 more posts. and at the end you came to the same conclusion-yes it's a mistake we all should learn from. WTF?

Secondly, it never did occured to you that may be it's my first hand experience with the frackups like shown in the video that prevented me from getting a title on my dog thus far? Which, ironically, makes my oppinion a qualified one.

[Johnny]

That was disturbing. My vote is Zhenya is right. Tristan does look to have the most potential of the 4 vids I watched.

[presagirls]

I do agree with Zhenya and Johnny!

[ironbull]

hola. creo que las conclusiones e imagen a las cuales ustedes entan llegando sobre los perros y antonio , no son deltodo correctas, esplicare punto por punto el porque.

si bien el trabajo no es el mas adecuado, no es con esto con lo que se deven quedar , ya que lo que tienen es que ver el gran potencial que tienen esos perros sin tener ningun trabajo de iniciacion y aguantar una situacion de defensa y estres tal alto como se les esta aplicando.esto no es facil aguantarlo para un perro sin temperamento.
referente a mustang , les dire que el perro no esta aconstumbrado a estar atado, con lo cual le presion que sufre el animal es bestial y aun asi el perro intenta morder.(fijense que el perro esta mas pendiente de la cadena que del agresor) hay veces que cuando antonio hace carga sobre el , el perro parece entrar en evitacion , pero mi conclusion al conocer el perro les dire que mas que en evitacion el perro entra en fustracion ya que no puede morder y si a eso le sumamos la inseguridad que le provoca el estar atado, comprenderemos el porque de su reazcion, si el trabajo de antonio hubiera sido otro y tratando de meter el perro en presa confirmandolo con la mordida , el resultado ubiera sido bien distinto, ya que el trabajo de presion es inadecuado y fuera de los momento que el pero requeria , pero tengan en cuenta que son amater y no se deve juzgar por este motivo , pero una cosa es cierta un perro sin tenperamento se hubiera roto en esta prueva y creo que aqui se ve el potencial de estos perros , con lo cual la seleccion de cria que mantiene antonio es de calidad, si bien tienen que adquirir la tecnica adecuada para desarollar el trabajo de defensa, esto es lo que pasa tambien con los demas perros,tengan encuenta que el figurante del traje, es el dueño de unos de los perros el cual jamas se puso un traje o trabajo un perro, pero quedense ustes con el potencial de los perros que es lo principal aqui.

P.D. espero alguien traduzca esto , ya que la imagen que se esta sacando de antonio le esta perjudicando , por no aver acompañado los videos de informacion detallada del porque de los mismos

video iniciación de cachorro (http://www.presa-ironbull.com/videosdescargar/cachorro_espainholandog_ironbull_(patucho3meses).m pg)

Wañak. Iniciacion de cachorro de 5 meses (http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=6130273327659080392)

[george]

People stop judging Antonio!Show some respect to this man and his dogs!!Antonio didn't post the videos for showing you his training skills but to show you his dogs!!The last days some people from this forum talking bad and critisize this man!!King Zulu is one of the best true presa canario breeders in the world!!Stop acting that you know everything!!The point of this video is not about training but about the taperament of his dogs.Gabi made a post!You have to read this post and stop judging so easy!

[presasur]

I don´t understand all the fuss..
These videos were not made to impress anyone.Apart from coto those dogs have never been worked or had any professional training,it was the first time ever most of these dogs were ´worked´ in this way.,we were just trying to form a group of presa owners to get together ocassionally and gradually develop -Afición- for the breed,no more no less.
This is a reality of the presa canario here in Spain,some presa owners with their dogs not knowing what to do with them apart from walking them or having them at home with the family,.Some with potentially good presas and others not as good,its that simple,not all of them will be like Volcan but will suit other purposes and functions.With proper training and work many of these dogs could become great presas.Some presas have started this way and have become good ones.
If we had tried to impress people we would have done a more serious work with experienced trainers and dogs.
We will post more videos of bitches soon and hopefully see some of these dogs progress.Behind some of every ´´spectacular´´ videos of presas there is a lot of serious work in terms of time,dedication and professionalism,it´s mostly the case.
If you want to judge these dogs It´s no problem,this is a forum and opininons differ,we agree with some and disagree with others,we will show the dogs though.
Tristan gets 24 hour of day life training every day of the month,nothing ´serious or professisonal´,we hope to achieve the same results with other pups when worked the same way.
We are always looking for a balanced presa with a good attitude to work.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

If a dog is goes into avoidance it will try to get away. It will back up more than a couple of steps.

Im not being coy. I dont see a PDC as that significant of an accomplishment. Saying anyone is in the the top x percent of presa owners is like saying they are at the top of the bottom of the heap.. whoppie...

Senor Miquel Escobar is the only one with signficant meaningful acheivements in sport when compared to other breeds, I dont compare myself to the rest of the Presa contingent. In comparision to Senor Escobar and owners of other breeds, in sport I have done diddly squat.

[eSPO]

Though the training is not there ( no foundation work) and the helper work is less than ideal, I do not see anything that would eliminate any of these dogs from being working prospects. I think "confusion" is a better description of the bitch than "fear" . My opinion.

CAn somebody please translate the above post that is in Spanish ?

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

"confusion"

Exactly

[Kiroman]

People stop judging Antonio!Show some respect to this man and his dogs!!Antonio didn't post the videos for showing you his training skills but to show you his dogs!!The last days some people from this forum talking bad and critisize this man!!King Zulu is one of the best true presa canario breeders in the world!!Stop acting that you know everything!!The point of this video is not about training but about the taperament of his dogs.Gabi made a post!You have to read this post and stop judging so easy!

Do you own a dog from them?

[curtis]

Here's the google translation of IRONBULL's post:

Hello. I think that the conclusions and image to which you entan arriving on dogs and antonio, deltodo are not correct, esplicare point by point why.

while the work is not the most appropriate, is not this which would be deven, because what they have to do is great potential for these dogs without any initiation of work and endure a situation of defense and stress such as high aplicando.esto being this is not easy to endure a dog without temperament.
concerning mustang, I will tell you that the dog is not accustomed to being tied, bringing pressure that he suffers the animal is so bestial and even the dog tries to bite. (Note that the dog is more outstanding in the chain that the aggressor) There are times when the load on antonio ago, the dog seems to be in avoidance, but my conclusion to know the dog I will tell you that more than avoidance in the dog enters fustracion because it can not bite and if we add to that insecurity it provokes be tied, understand why his reaction, if the work had been antonio another and trying to put the dog in dam confirms with the bite, the result ubiera been very different, because the work pressure is inappropriate and outside the moment but that required, but bear in mind that are Amato and must not be judged because of this, but one thing is certain tenperamento without a dog had been broken in this prueva and I think here is the potential of these dogs, thus the selection of breeding antonio is maintaining quality, although they must acquire the appropriate technical work to develop defense, this is also what happens with the other dogs, which have intoaccount figurant of the suit, owns one of the dogs which never became a suit or work a dog, but ustes Stay with the potential of dogs that is the main thing here.

PS I hope someone translates this, because the image that this drawing of antonio this hurting him, not aver accompanied by videos of detailed information because of the same

[curtis]

just my opinion, but if you don't want someone to critique your dogs/videos/training methods, don't post them to an internet board.

[eSPO]

just my opinion, but if you don't want someone to critique your dogs/videos/training methods, don't post them to an internet board.

http://www.elpresa.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif


Really ? this is the kind of BS that led me to back away from the message board. Lou posted a video of some green dogs and some "helpers". No ,the helpers are not up to snuff with trained, qualified ,help that know all the tricks and techniques. The dogs are green and not trained by any stretch of the imagination. There is a huge cultural difference here. The video was not posted as a "How to" 0n training or handling protection dogs. What was being shared is what the temperament of green dogs should be. I like to see people, at least, making an attempt to proof dogs and who really care what they produce. These dogs make 90 %of the dogs out there being sold as "Presa Canarios" look like garbage. I know of breeding dogs out there being used for breeding that go into total avoidance at any approach of a stranger. It is common in the world of todays "breeders"

I would rather see you ask respectable questions than try and belittle people that have been involved in the breed long before many of you ever heard of a Presa Canario.

[Kiroman]

I have to disagree, you post up videos people are going to comment on what they see, plain and simple. Do I think they were trying to put on a clinic, NO. But when are we going to see something that is not a "green" being shown from these producers of cream of the crop presas? I mean enough is enough, I am aware of the whole debate on what makes a "presa a presa" and the value / worthlessness of titles, but I do not see anything special of videos showing dogs being poorly trained, if they are not being train, what the hell are they doing? Showing off a dog will bark and bite when it is getting very agitated? Come on...

[Johnny]

To repeat what Zhenya has already said, if you can't see it, then there's little hope for a conversation. I haven't watched all of them, but from the one's I seen, only Tristan was showing what I would call acceptable behavior for the situation she was being put into. Her potential will probably never be realized with this training, but she looks to have really good character from these vids.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Kiroman, wasnt your dog a King Zulu dog? Why was it not appropriate for sport? Did you replace it with a Mal or a Shepard?

[Kiroman]

Not sure your point Dennis besides trying to be an ass

Zulu dogs are suited for certain things, I do not feel sport is one of them speaking from personal experience and other who have owned their dogs...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Kiroman,

I am simply asking why was in your opinion this particular dog not suited for sport?

As you and another indicated. You post things on a board, you should expect questions and opinions/input/criticisms.

[Kiroman]

ok...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

So no answer. No reason to get miffed if no one answers you then and you leave an open playing field to assume anything about a King Zulu dog, like it was a shitter and could not do sport etc.. I personally believe that given the right training the dog could do protection and sport, but apparently you believed nothing could have helped the dog. You did King Zulu a dis-service by not getting the dog the right training. Shepard and Mal clubs don't have the patience to do the training necessary.

[Kiroman]

You did King Zulu a dis-service by not getting the dog the right training. Shepard and Mal clubs don't have the patience to do the training necessary.

Now your ignorance is really showing through...I did Zulu NO DIS-SERVICE, quite the opposite, but you have no clue and its probably better that way. Now why don't you make some comment about casey and sam being gay, its about time for that...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Of course I am ignorant as far as why the dog was not considered appropriate for sport, is why I asked, I am not psychic how can I be knowledgeable if you don't enlighten me? Why don't you have the sac to be upfront about it?

[Kiroman]

Why don't you have the sac to be upfront about it?
A Valued member of our community folks...

/thread

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

And that is a rationale, transparent, logical response... How?

[Minestrone]

The silence is deafening.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

It's more like fear and avoidance :eek: accompanied by trembling silence.

[jdunson]

This thread went bad so quickly. ..

The whole point was to show maybe some early "prey drive" display, and that's what we saw. I don't think there was a claim made with the post of anything to the contrary. I think the critics made some accurate observations if this was anything other than what it was originally stated to be.

This really goes to the question that has been raised, argued, and evaded many times on here... are we breeding / raising sport dogs? I say not. While there will be those out of a given litter, line, etc. that maybe able to do and excel in the sport ring the large majority I would say are personal protection dogs (guardians). They are going to be quite "dirty" when they work. Those that do excel are going to also be those who have been extensively trained from puppy on specific aspects of a sport trial, competition. Guardian dogs do not always make good psa trial dogs just as psa trained dogs do not always make perfect guardians. That's the truth that some on both sides never want to face.

My opinion.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

PSA should be a cake walk for a properly trained protection dog. It may be a little sloppier as far as obedience but thats about it.

[atlpresa]

The sad thing about this post is it would have been a great chance to show the right and wrong way to do things. Some folks asked for clarification on different aspects of the training but not much was given. It just spiralled into the usual discussions.

There's always alot of talk about community but in comunities people that know show those that don't. That didn't happen here.

Some will read the bickering and go out and do their own thing and then everyone will be up in arms when you find their web-site selling dogs that probably shouldn't of been bred and aren't trained. When we had an opportunity to educate them then this type of thing happened.

I get updates from Balabanov's yahoo group and those people can't wait to lend a helping hand when someone asks a question. Of course they're all working their dogs so they have learned experience to share.


Next time someone talks about the "dogs" we should take a moment and think about the owners that have them. We have got to do better than we are.

My .02

[jdunson]

PSA should be a cake walk for a properly trained protection dog. It may be a little sloppier as far as obedience but thats about it.

Working with quite a few psa trainers, I would have to disagree. If you speak with most who are honest about their training abilities and realistic about their expectations, I think they would all agree. A dirty dog is just that a dirty dog, they are not going to recieve high marks for poor obedience in a trial. But I am cool with that. I am not looking for necessarily a psa dog, I want a Presa. Now if I produce or purchase one that is that rare gem that can do both, great.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Understand your perspective Jdunson. Here is my points, first one premise. Your counter point is welcome.

1. Premise.
A well trained protection dog, a guardian is an obedient dog.

If we have no agreement on this point then there is no reason to discuss. We can agree to disagree. I would state that the potential liablity is to great not to have an obedient Presa and good ob makes things safer for a dog, a good recall can save a dogs life. An obedient dog is a pleasure to take out in public, an uncontrollable dog that is sharp or over aggressive... well you get the point.

2. A protection dog has to be trained better in obedience in a manner, because in the real world a dog cannot be pattern trained, pattern training may work for a sport dog, a routine is known, it is trained for, there is no pattern in the real world. When you say "down" you want the dog to "down" no matter where it is, or what the down is on, same with stay etc. in the real world that can be anywhere anytime. Now, he/she may not have a crisp down or a good out, but for a protection dog in the real world there are no points for a quick crisp down and if I want a protection dog, I would rather him out slowly than out immediately, no points lost there real world either. If I train the command and not the routine, when I get on the sports trial field, my dog will obey. I don't even have to train the routine.

3. Protection/bite/grip portion of the Sport. Same game really. Real world protection a dog should be exposed to as many situations as possible in training, not limited to known scenarios and the possiblity of 3 "surprise" scenarios, the scenarios are known, (PSA) which one is picked is the surprise. Like obedience if I train the command, not a pattern and have a trust relationship with the dog, and the dog has the temprament to be at least trained, the dog is going to bite on command in any situation including sport scenarios.

Appreciate your counterpoints.

[Minestrone]

A dirty dog is just that a dirty dog, they are not going to recieve high marks for poor obedience in a trial.

But they could still pass if the score is not to low?

[jdunson]

But they could still pass if the score is not to low?

That depends on how they are really grading. I have been to some trials where dirty dogs have taken top honors, but very few.

Dennis, I think we are on the same page. I really do agree with your points. I guess to me it seemed like this thread was going another direction as to what to expect. I am a firm believer that a protection dog can learn and run through with the best of them, when trained for psa/sport trials. What I saw in the video were strong natured protection prospects. I think that was the whole point of the post. Maybe I am wrong, that's just what I saw.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Jdunson, I saw dogs that could be trained regardless of the defensive/avoidance discussion.