Mothers Milk from RAW vs Kibble

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Anyone know of any information that indicates whether there is a difference in quality of not? Mother's milk generated from a bitch that eats RAW or RAW Kibble combination v.s. just kibble?

[cawkazn]

i dont know the answer to this, but i would imagine it would make a slight difference.

[ISAPRESA]

It seems it would make a difference. The pups are going to get the quality nutrition, vitamins, minerlas etc.. in the milk comeing from the RAW vs just kibble diet and im sure it would help assist in the bitchs pregnancy as well with all that qaulity nutrition, I would compare it to eating a healthy diet of organic meats, fruits and vegitables vs, eating mc donalds everyday and taking a man made multi vitamin. You are what you eat IMO. It seems more natural to feed RAW, I'll try to find some research

[Darianna]

i looked around for some info from good raw sites and some books I have...can't say that I found any information.

I think it's hard to say...I think there would only be a difference in milk quality if the female was consuming a nutrient deficient diet...if you compared a fed raw female to a kibble with less nutritional value than garbage (kibbles-n-bits, ol' roy, whatever...) fed female, I'd assume there would be a difference.

the idea behind raw is that you are feeding your dog "live" food loaded with active enzymes, vitamins and minerals....obviously kibble can't deliver that....and I assume that when you maximize a dog's nutrient intake, she would produce a superior milk.....at least that's what they say for humans.

[presasrus]

I asked my friend up here who has worked in a high volume vet emerg hospital for nine yrs, and she claims it doesn't matter. She's not a vet but considering she had a science degree before the nine years of fifty plus hr weeks, and is routinely trusted to do things there procedure-wise that most entry level vets there cannot do apparently, her opinion should count for something. I'm not convinced yet, so will ask someone else and get back to everyone.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

the idea behind raw is that you are feeding your dog "live" food loaded with active enzymes, vitamins and minerals....obviously kibble can't deliver that....and I assume that when you maximize a dog's nutrient intake, she would produce a superior milk.....at least that's what they say for humans.


The article is supportive of the above comment.

The article is for humans, but I don't think it is to far a stretch to deduce that the same dynamics would apply to all mammals.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_6245.cfm


Specifically, a diet in which 90% or more of dairy and meat products are organic is correlated with measurably higher levels of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA). CLA is a type of fat that is believed to have anti-carcinogenic, anti-atherosclerotic, anti-diabetic and immune-enhancing effects, as well as a favorable influence on body fat composition. For newborns specifically, CLA is believed to especially aid immune system development.

Given that a lot of kibbles are carinogenic themselves, why would anybody not do R.A.W.

[Darianna]

Given that a lot of kibbles are carinogenic themselves, why would anybody not do R.A.W.

because they don't care, or are too ignorant to flip the bag over, read the ingredients and figure out what kind of garbage they are putting into their dog's body...

She's not a vet but considering she had a science degree before the nine years of fifty plus hr weeks, and is routinely trusted to do things there procedure-wise that most entry level vets there cannot do apparently, her opinion should count for something. I'm not convinced yet, so will ask someone else and get back to everyone.

not to denounce her opinion, but given that she worked in a vet's office...where they are very medical-model and in many environments, frown upon raw feeding or holistic approaches to treating animals, I'm not surprised by her answer. just a thought....:)

[presasrus]

I'll try to get more info, for now here's some reading. The language is directly from the sites, it's not mine.

source: rawboxers.com/diet_bitch.shtml

“Ratio Raw - Pregnant/Lactating Bitches

Since implementing this menu we have had and helped multiple bitches and litters thrive. The results have been nothing short of amazing. Bitches producer higher then average litter numbers, strong puppies that want to grow and puppies that rarely hit the low that so many litters do.

1/3 Veggie Mush

This is raw veggies such as apples, carrots, leaf lettuce ground or made into baby food mush. Garlic cloves can be included in your veggie mush occasionally.

1/3 Bone and Meat

This is easily found as chicken but can be any bone that your dog can finish in a meal such as deer, moose, buffalo, rabbit, elk and so on. Please be aware that many boxers can develop a sensitivity to beef if it is fed as a main staple, with the exception of beef organ meat.

1/3 Red Organ Meat

This is to ensure anemia is not a problem with your boxer. Liver, kidney and heart of any red meat type animal is suggested (beef, deer, moose, buffalo).”

source: sandialabradors.com/html/body_raw_feeding.html

“A lactating bitch on raw food will produce a little less volume of milk but it will be richer. A raw fed lactating bitch will also recover her figure faster (probably due to the fact that her connective tissue is stronger) and will not lose anywhere near the amount of coat that a kibble fed lactating bitch will lose. And, last but not least, raw fed dogs have an amazing ability to heal very quickly, which we attribute to a stronger immune system.”

source: Bullmarketfrogs.com/articles/rawfoodrisk.htm

“While we now had an answer as to what had killed Tear Drop, we still needed to know how - how did he come to be infected with it? Neospora is passed by vertical transmission - from dam to fetus via the placenta. Therefore, we had to assume that Tara had somehow come into contact with the organism. Since we are not a rural kennel, contact with infected livestock was ruled out. We then began to consider the raw meat we had been feeding Tara during her pregnancy. I was primarily giving her fresh raw Provimi veal liver, obtained at an exorbitant cost from a gourmet butchery nearby our house. By coincidence, I still had two packets of this liver frozen in my freezer, which we duly shipped off to Alberta to be tested. Both packets were found to contain Neospora Caninum. The path of infection was explained - Tara ingested the protozoans from the fresh, unfrozen meat, and passed them via the placenta to Tear Drop while he was in utero.

I and many other raw food proponents were not fully aware of the need to either clean the meat with grapefruit seed extract or food grade hydrogen peroxide, or to first freeze and then thaw it. These simple measures would have killed the Neospora, preventing it from being passed from Tara to her puppy.”

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Great research and info. I did not know the information contained in the last paragraph, I really should have deduced it. Salami is uncooked, but the mixture of meat and spices is taken down to -25 degrees centigrade. I installed a temperature and recording system in a salami plant years ago. They do this to kill off all the micro-organisms. Most of what I feed the dogs has been frozen except when I initially get home from purchasing raw beef, the first portions have not been frozen. Looks like Ill have to be safe and overlap so everything is frozen and not take chances.

[presagirls]

Here is a good article describing that parasite; I am surprised it is so common in cattle; especially veal when they are fed mainly antibiotics!

Life cycle of Neospora caninum
The life cycle of N. caninum in dogs is very similar to that of T. gondii in cats (http://cats.suite101.com/article.cfm/cats_and_toxoplasma_gondii). An infected dog has parasites multiplying sexually in the intestine and the infective oocyst is passed in the dog’s feces. Meanwhile, parasites are also multiplying asexually in other tissues.
Harbouring the sexual form of N. caninum in the intestine makes domestic dogs the definitive host of the parasite. It’s not known whether other animals are capable of serving as a definitive host, but wild dogs, such as foxes, wolves, coyotes etc. may do so.
Animals other than dogs that ingest either oocysts in dog feces or animal tissue in which the parasite is present become intermediate hosts – they have only the asexual stage, multiplying in the tissue. Thus, dogs pass on the parasite in their feces, in their tissue if they are eaten by other animals, or to an unborn fetus. No animals other than dogs have been known to spread the parasite in feces.

Neosporosis in dogs
Neospora caninum infects domestic dogs worldwide with varying prevalence. Studies testing dogs for antibodies to the parasite suggest that more than 30% of dogs are infected in some areas, with the highest numbers in South American countries and in rural dogs, especially those living on cattle farms.
Most infected dogs have no symptoms. When symptoms occur, neosporosis is most severe in newborn puppies, infected during gestation when the parasites move from the bitch’s tissues to the fetus. Puppies suffer paralysis, particularly of the hind legs, and often do not survive. Adult dogs may suffer from an illness similar to toxoplasmosis in cats, or they may develop dermatitis.

Neosporisis in cattle
Like dogs, cattle everywhere harbour N. caninum, and most show no signs of it. In some herds, close to 90% of cattle are infected and the parasite is thought to account for more than 40% of abortions – a significant cause of economic loss for cattle farmers. Many infected fetuses and calves appear normal, however, and it is still unclear what factors cause or prevent disease symptoms.
In cattle, N. caninum is transmitted only from a pregnant cow to her fetus—the parasite does not pass between cows in a herd. Some cows, then, must acquire the parasite from dogs, consuming oocysts while grazing where dogs have defecated. It’s easy to imagine how farm dogs and livestock (sheep, goats, and horses can also be infected) may have increased the prevalence of the parasite, with dogs eating the remains of aborted young, becoming infected, and then passing infective oocysts in feces deposited where livestock graze. Calves born without symptoms, meanwhile, pass the parasite on to their own young.
Whether the abortions occurring in Somerset in England resulted from infected dogs defecating on cattle farms, or whether they came from silent infections already present in the cattle remains unknown; however, picking up after your dog is always good practice, and will lessen the risk of spreading not only neosporosis, but other diseases as well.

[Juan00]

because they don't care, or are too ignorant to flip the bag over, read the ingredients and figure out what kind of garbage they are putting into their dog's body...



not to denounce her opinion, but given that she worked in a vet's office...where they are very medical-model and in many environments, frown upon raw feeding or holistic approaches to treating animals, I'm not surprised by her answer. just a thought....:)


Overall, this is a very good thread that was started, along with some great answers that have been given thus far.

Mole has been on raw ever since she got off her mother's milk. Mole and all her litter mates never had worms or any other puppy problems that are so common to hear about. Mole herself has only been to the vet 4 times since I had her and it was all for routine health checks and such. She's never had fleas (IMO, all because of raw) and has never had any health problems (I attribute that raw and the rest to sound genetics).

Personally, I never pimp or push raw on anyone, but it's the best decision I ever made before I even had Mole in my life. My two previous dogs that were on kibble, had various health ailments and such that subsided or went away completely after the switch to raw. I could go on and on but I don't want to bog down the thread.

Anyhow, I got to see when Mole and her entire litter first went from their mother's milk and straight to raw for their first solid feeding. And I've been steadfast and strict with how I feed raw to her to present time. I couldn't be happier with the results and will alway feed raw from hear on out.