Do you know this dog? (90's)

[effa]

Hi!

This dog was born somwhre in the 90's. He belonged Irema Curtó kennels.

Maybe some of you know him...

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/ReyGladiador/irema-cutro.jpg

greetings,
Ewa

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I dont know the dog, looks like a lot of Spanish Mastiff influence. Dog in the background is interesting.

[effa]

What makes you feel it has Spanish Mastiff blood? It is possible due to the fact that Spanish Mastiff ocured in this lines in the 80's and this dog is from beganing of 90's. But I'm curious because I rather don't see any resamblence of it in this dog

and still I'm looking for name of this dog if anyone know it :)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

The shape of the head, though this dogs muzzle is a little longer, and the body shape. Take a look at some of the males on the site below.

http://www.spanishmastiff.org/draco.html

[presas4me]

I have to agree with Dennis :eek: I thought Spanish Mastiff also......

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Im writing that in My Diary Today!!!

"Dear Diary, today Cathy and I agreed on something!!! "

:D :ok:

[effa]

Background dogs are interesting. About the fawn I would only mantione dewloap. Maybe I don't see something that you see. I will try to look closer :)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I will come to Poland and help you look closer. :)

[J@ckson]

Hey Steel, are there any women on here you haven't propositioned?




















:P :P :P

[J@ckson]

P.S. Hey Effa............call me.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Meridith and Ewa are friends, Jackson. I jive with both of them at times. They are the only ones on this board I do it with. They dont take me seriously, I dont take me seriously. But I am a bit sweet on Ewa. :P

Interesting your concerned about it,, worried about something? Have a thing for Ewa and your miffed that I flirt with her? umm I think I might go visit her.... ~laughs~ silly boy.

[Dogdefender]

Jackson v/s Steel... Steel use leather and ride in motorcycle ...I give my vote to him :ok: is the fight of century!

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Ill fight with all Im worth if Ewa is the prize!!!! :ok:
;)

If not, Ill have a beer, shoot some pool, and take a ride to the Hot Springs and relax..

Action Jackson cannot get any Satisfaction.. ;)

[effa]

Sorry to interrupt boys... wasn't it about dogs

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

~laughs~

One more time. Heavy Spanish Mastiff Influence.

[J@ckson]

Jackson v/s Steel... Steel use leather and ride in motorcycle ...I give my vote to him :ok: is the fight of century!http://www.gayways.to/images/Image-Queer/Biker.jpg :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[presa_lady]

LMAO!! :D

[Dogdefender]

jajajaja, yea Jackson, but this is a leather man dogo type, my friend Dennis is a Presa!!!!!!!!

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Removed by Me

[J@ckson]

It's nice to see you put some effort into your posting.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Was no effort at all, rather easy. Glad you can appreciate a little creativity....
I read about a good diet, Ill pm you the details, maybe it will help.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

DogDefender
Thats a funny and cool pic!!! , Good cut and paste job, I am going to print it out. Reminds me of EasyRider :ok:

Ill post a real pic soon..... "Yea though I ride through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil....." :angel:

[J@ckson]

Was no effort at all, rather easy. Glad you can appreciate a little creativity....
I read about a good diet, Ill pm you the details, maybe it will help.Help what? You silly old man you.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Ewa, what is important about this dog, why is the name important, what is the research you do? I am sure it is very interesting, I know your interest in history and pedigree is important to you. Now I am curiuos!

[effa]

Ewa, what is important about this dog, why is the name important, what is the research you do? I am sure it is very interesting, I know your interest in history and pedigree is important to you. Now I am curiuos!

I'm looking for one fawn dog and can't find any photo - probably there was none. I have had this no-name one so I thought I'll try -maybe with some luck it would be him. As i was told he's not the one I was looking for...

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

What is the name of the dog you are looking for? Maybe there is someone that knows this dog.

[blas_t]

HI Effa, I will write Manuel and Valeria and ask about this fawn dog, and if you give me the name of the dog you are looking for information on, I can also ask about this......

[effa]

León RRC 0052539 from Puma and Yaisa - father of Tigre and Tibia and Clary

colour fawn ;)

Also was looking for

Piti - son of Traquer and Aiwa
Thor de Irema Curto - son of Chio and Cony
Carpo (León x Clary) and Negri (Taucho x Canaria) - parents of Dama de Irema Curto
Layca from Traquer and Quira
And Clary from Puma and Kika

.... thats alot but I don't think I will fond this dogs :)

Thanks :)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Your a true Presa Historian, Ewa, Will be good to see the results of all your research.

[effa]

Not only Presa ;) I'm also searching for my family :D At this time I have my grand-grand-grand parents that were born in 1838 :) Hope to find more ;)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I think you will find that when you go far back enough you came from Zeus and Athena.... :ok: .....Pajoski. :D

Just teasing you!!!

[effa]

Hehehe who knows :ok:

[parintele]

this tread is the answer to the dogo vs presa issue...

i looked over the internet too a long period of time to see what a keck is in the past of our curto dogs, pictures, pedigrees, litters they rpoduced during the time...

is silly that lovers of PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO in europe who got curto dogs and own them and PROMOTE THEM in a world full of shortlegged dogos NEED TO ASK everywere oever the internet...some have a picture of x dog from 90/s, other guy have a piece of it's pedigree, on another site u find another dog and the otehr half of it's pedigree...

and this way u try to undestand WHAT u can do inthe future to KEEP THE TRADITIONAL LINE....


is kinda silly to complain someone stolen your breed, that "they" are changind the breed by producing many many dogs, etc...but the ones who REALLY promote your kind of dogs struggle to understand what u have done 20 years ago and try to continue your work in different countries...

on curto site is no pedigree, one picture for some dogs and that is all....

how the hell people could promote and produce REAL PRESAS, how they can fight with silly "dogos" in shows and from image point of view without ANY KIND OF SUPPORT AND INFORMATION???

that is the answer to the question :WHY a bunch of breeders managed to CHANGE a breed ....cause TEHY sold dogs nad offered supoport to other breeders all over the europe...senor curto sold dogs and that is pretty mych all....
some dogs with no real history of them, pedigree database, pictures and descriptions u can't stabilize and promote a breed because breeding is like being blind in this situation....pitbulls and mastiffs and bullmastiffs from the back are coming back in the future litters....

sad but true..is sad that a passionate person like Ewa who have curto line dogs, promotes them all over europe and on every board, with a incredible internet site for the breed, NEED TO ASL ON A BOARD ABOUT A DOG IN THE PAST...
that is why dogo lovers succeded and presa lovers did not in europe...
i am in the same situation as ewa...sad but true...

[effa]

I can't agree. I have had help from Mrs. Valeria Curto (wife of Mr. Manuel Curto). She helped me with pedigree and with dogs from old videos with I have had :)

And I also collected pretty much about pedigree of my dogs.

Here you can view Kingo's pedigree... up to 10 generations in some parts.

http://reygladiador.com/presa23a.htm

there are photos of some of this dogs (few not working... I don't know why I always have problems with links to photos).

If you "click" last names in pedigree you will go further. I don't have all because I gues some dogs were just taken from the yard and nobody carred about their pedigree. Probably some things want be correct but it's not important.

I don't have much contact with Irema Curto because I don't have dogs from them. But Paweł from Awangarda who imported few dogs from them always talked good about them.

[blas_t]

What are you talking about Parintele? Have you ever taken the time to write Senor Curto or Valeria ? Have you taken the time to read Manuels book, his articles, seen him on video? You are a bold man, that speaks like you know it all, when really you are in a very beginning stage of discovery and research. Your mentality and thought process is elemintary at best. The day you understand Irema Curto is the first day that you begin to understand the Perro de Presa Canario.

[parintele]

effa, WHY over the internet u CAN't find many, many pictures of the past dogs, back to the construction of he breed?
WHY the pedigrees are not public??? WHY u ask here onthe board and not them about a fawn dog????
and there are many why's...
why nobody is allowed to post pictures with their dogs???what needs to be hidden???

regarding me, i lie THIS breed an it's looks. i have a curto dog, a decent one i am very happy with. i presented THIS dog in romania and neighbor countries from passionand nothing else...i spent on shows 3 times at least the price of top presa/dogo canario pups for passion about this breed...
i contacted them 2 years ago, a short reply..since then NOTHING.


i need to think how to breed my dog and others we have here n romania, SCIENTIFICALLY, in order to obtain typical and consistent litters...

unfortunatelly if u look closely to allmost of the dogs they sold, TOO FEW ot the litters are uniform and as good as thir parents...
WHY? even the pairs curto recommended???
because in the past are dogs we do not know or origins is not known...


i studied for more than a year those dogs and have some conclusions... in europe, the only consistent kennel that obtain uniform litters is the breeder of ewa's dogs, GREY blood all the way...
the rest is a mess..WHY???
are all the breeders stupid? how come dogo canario guys can get uniform, parents look alike litters and just one line of curto dogs ???

this is not a lack of collaboration and informations for the breeders in europe?

let;s face it... is allmost impossible to work on curtodogs, with very few exceptions...

is sad for me...my only option is to collaborate with other owners of curto dogs owners...and guess what is inthe blood of those dogs and try ....and prey to god...that is not chynollogy, is stupid..

i can prove all i say, with results from breeders, pictures, tons of pedsi have...would serve nobodyand would not be fair...


but i keep my conclusion : if curto would have been more honest and opened with most of the breeders got dogs from him, NOW we would have not few but MANY MANY good dogs in europe and MAYBE FCI dogo canario would look as SHOULD LOOK...

if u look in the back of most of the champion spanish and world or european dogo canario u will find curto dogs...back to early 90's....
is sad and a pitty for these wonderfull dogs...

[Dogdefender]

Parintele, I don´t agree with you. How you can say that the "breeder" is the only in Europe??? hey, remember that Spain also is Europe.

If you say that Curto dont was honest, I can say that the breeder that you speak also was committed great errors.
First, one thing is philosophy of breed. Manuel Curto wrote until getting tired that Presa is different race than Dogo. And if we believe in that, we buy a Curto dog or other Presa line out of FCI.
If we believe that dogo is the same race, we buy in a dogo FCI kennel.
But the breeder that you speak whats make?? First, was acquired Curto dogs to what? to put them in expositions and sell under the "Ch. sons concept"
And, having that precious phenotype, now the dogs looks more dogos, with more bone, and the heads are total different to original imported Curto Dogs. This is not a good work with presa, is a great work with dogos, to win championschips and have a place in the dogo world.

I ask myself , why search Curto dogs to break the philosophy of the original breeder?? Why buy a Curto bloodline to select dogs differents of the original line?? Why transform the special body type of Curto dogs in dogs more heavy and with more moloss aspect??
I think that change the work of a lot, lot of years is a lack of respect, and not maintain a wise criterion from Canarias and Spain breeders is go to other way.
If the people really loves one bloodline, the best is listen the original breeder, if not , the best is look for another race that it is more near of our modern concepts of breed.
Manuel Curto is not perfect, but he belongs to the real world of Presa. He does not have to give explanations to nobody, on the contrary, many people needs give explanations of why they focus everything to expose dogs and never they applied thats Curto says in his texts and articles.
Parintele, you have a treasure in your dog, looks like presa and looks like Curto Dog.
If Mr. manuel and many other Breeders from Spain and Canarias don´t make public his old pedigrees, we can make one thing: take it or not take it. If we are not in agreement with which they do, then we we go to another breed, but the Presa is the presa, from Canarias, with the cultural defects from Spain and with a tradition very difficult to understand for some, but it is what there is.

[LawrenceandHaney]

Ok, I rarely get involved with this side of the forum but I have two rebutals to make.

First and foremost Ewa is one on the most dedicated owners on this forum. The dedication to expolring, researching, and preserving the history of the breed in unparralled. Also, Ewa's dogs are pretty damn nice as well.

Second, the comments made about inconsistency in Curto Dogs I disagree with 100% as well as most of the other nonsense attributed to Sen Curto. Having 2 direct Curto Imports in our family and a 3rd Dog with Curto lines ...belive me there is consistency. Perhaps you are mistaking the various lines Curto has breed...ie larger boned vs compact..etc...I in no way believe that Curto is the only good Presa Breeder in Europe but he is one to be respected...just like the other great European breeders

For God's sake do your homework! Probably the most uniformed post made in a while.

Lawrence

[eSPO]

Parentele your post sounds like a huge, passionate opinion based on little knowledge or experience. Curtos pedigrees are very extensive and deeper than many FCI dogs that you will find. Remember almost all of the Dogos of today started out with his blood. The CEDC just took it a little different direction , the incorporated modern purebred mastiffs and bulldogs, void of any Majorero or any functional history. Effa is asking abvout a pre registro dog and there are many pre registro dogs with no photographic history or questions regarding their lineage.

[effa]

@Parintele
I would write to Mr. Curto for informations but I don't think it would be ok after denying an article wrote by him whlie ago.
Also I have few hundred old photos - in any breed you wan't find many old photos. Friend that have Ca de Bou have ony few old photos.

The line of Tomas, Grey is very common. If you want to have your own line you inbreed to famous dogs. And this can be seen even now, many years after birth of famous Grey.

http://reygladiador.com/grey2.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/ReyGladiador/123.jpg - product of inbreeding on line of Grey (mother: Esa with is daughter to Grey; father Chuck, with is son of Arico who is son of Grey). Colour of Kingo comes from Bari (mother of Esa) or from Gara - mother of Grey - probably Gara when looking on Markings. He carries this colour of brindle in gens as he has and also dark almost black brindle - this would come from Esa

he is older than grey on this photo so he is more developed but it's easy to see his line.

It's hard to judge only by photos but living with dog and studing photos and videos give some concept on with I can say that he is very similar to Grey.

here is Bari
http://reygladiador.com/bari.jpg

and Gara
http://www.iremacurto.com/presacanario/images/pp93.gif

I don't want to speak more.

And dogo has nothing to do with this subject. I think both lines has their own ways and this is choice of people.

* * *

Still will look for info or maybe some other photos to back to the subjet.

Maybe you know this dog?

http://reygladiador.com/lata90.jpg

He reminds me of Chio (it's not Chio but maybe family)

[parintele]

1. Effa, isi just what i said: that your dogs are CONSISTENT, inbreeding worked VERY WELL and fortunatelly your breeder and u managed to produce one line of dogs...GREY line is stable more than many others...

this is the reason i offered u as a good example of succes withy curto dogs.

BUT i could offer u many litters from let's say for example, female from Vento and male from Nestor.
i know at least 3 litters from 6 different parents, same patern, they all did not worked, different type of dogs, different body structure, heads, etc...
i observed for example nestor produced very very good males, vento very very good females. obtaining consistent litters from nestor son and vento daughter unfortunatelly was very difficult...
also i observed vento inbreedings did not worked very good.

and tehereare many, many observations documented with peds and pictures...

what should senor cutrto have been done???
is obvious his dogs, many of them, are not stable lines...the work of selection, inbreedings, etc...should have been continued in order to stabilize the breed....
HOW can i do that now?

for me is obvious dogs from the past are coming back from great parents... to stabilize that the breeder who created the breed MUST get involved more, must be more receptive, after all when i go to a show or i promote my dog i promote curto dog and not parintele dog...

dogdefender and lawrenceandhaney, i will postmy observation on a internet page under password. and AFTER taht u will judge if i am or am not right.


azespo, my post come from a HUUUUUGE passion for my dog and from many presas...i now thousands of dogs of various breeds, i have friedns that breed champion bullmastiffs,amstaffs, argentinos, etcetcetc...and more dogs i know better, i lie presa more and more...
and jsut because this huge love for presa i MUST be more responsable and be more honestabout it.
i will also provide u the link.
the point is i regret from all my hart curto is not able to continue collaboration with european breeders and litters that are coming from his dogs proves inthe past are things or dogs that need MUCH MORE attention and collaboration in order to be put in order....


and i say this: if curto wopuld have chose to FIGHTandnot to isolate himself, if he would have support more the breeders who started with him, NOW, in europe, we would have many, many good dogs and we would be able to ficht with dogo...

yes, maybe some turned the original "breed" with bullmastiffs and neapolitan mastiffs and so, so what? in a dog show and for the public of such dogs, being active, athletiv, good temper, moving like a dream, all those assets of a perro de presa would make him a winner , would promote him in front of legless cows that call themself dogo canarios...

even now, with this trend in the dogo canario breed, i still won in shows and my dog have more fans in here than most of dogo canario champions

that is the truth...

and azespo, u forget one HUUUUUGE DETAIL:
u live in US, u have there other rulesand clubs andstuff...
in europe, in many countries, any DANGEROUS LIKE DOG MUST BE REGISTERED both to police and canine national club. in many countries, escept uk, FCI RULES...u want PRESA, u have to beDOGO...
u want to produce pups from an exceptional presa, u MUST GO TOSHOWS FOR BREEDING RIGHT, so the pups get PAPERS recognized , after that u go with those papers and register to the police....

THAT IS WHY in many countries, curto does notmatternow and we are on our own....
and is ok, was his decision, there are dogs with fci papers left, but at least be trasnparent, offer us support, info, etc...
when u refuse to talk with those who promote your dogs because u do not like FCI i call that irresponsable, arrogant. with all the respect i have for him.

in other words, we started together a war, we payed for dogs u sold to us, guns let;s say, and after a while u decide u have to fight another war...and i need to buy ammo from anotehr one, i have no clue what ammo is good formy gun, how the gun works, what can i do with it and so on...

isnot FAIR...

as i said, is a shame, in europe he abandoned the fight..that is not what a PRESA do in a conflict i must say. i do not like that.

i will make that internet page with pictures and pedigrees and i wil show u guys, ONLY THOSE INVOLVED with this lines, how and why i am dissapointed...

i live in europe , i have lawss and rules, i love presa and want to promote it and for me and those like me is no option...

[effa]

But breeding is not puting two dogs toogether, it's not seeing pedigree and seeing a dog and inbreed to it. It's lot of studies and work to obtain what you are looking for. Dogs that have only good parents can be ezxcellent in any part, and excellent parent can produce only good puppies. I see many litters and what people are doin, it's not thinking about what they want to obtain - they just cross and have very pure results. It doesn't matter that both have excellent pedigrees because they don't math toogether. Inbreed is also something what you should do very carefull because you can double not only the best geens but also recesive that can give you many suprises. This is why not always this works.


As to Mr.Manuel Curto - he has his own path, he has his suporters and why not to accept this. He choose his way many years ago, we shouldn't put any words in his mouth because we are not him, we don't know what he thinks and what he wants.

[Dogdefender]

Manuel Curto often wrote its thought and its reasons, but nobody want listen and read. The people don't want have presas, all want be breeders and sell, this is all.

[parintele]

Ewa, EXACTLY MY POINT.

to make chinollogy, to select and produce QUALITY dogs, as close as "ideal standard dog", u need HUUUUUGE AMOUNT OF KNOLEDGE AND INFORMATION.
the lack of expertise from one of most experimented breeder, lack of information, documentation, advices, observations, pictures, temperament descriptions in detail, EVERYTHING makes things VEY HARD IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE...

without the man who created the breed and saw thousant of dogs of all ind, produced hundreds of litters, made crossbreedings, inbreedings, know every spot, tooth and caracter issue of past dogs, WE CAN'T HELP THE BREED....

The people don't want have presas, all want be breeders and sell, this is all.

dogdefender, IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING...

he PRODUCES AND SELLS DOGS..and the rest ???

yes, curto produces very ofter incredible presas, he sells SOME OF THEM, BUT AFTER THAT???

that is the point..u cant creat a breed by yourself and u can't promote the breed by yourself..u can't produce enough dogs so u can dominate with a type of dogs...

dogo guys collaborated and NOW they produces relatively alike dogs, more uniform than us....

curto wanted to be the only breeder and to sell...
his option, i respect that, he wanted to control the destiny of its creation, but without collaboration , alone, u can't do nothing...


having 1-2-3 breeders to collaborate with in every country in europe, the number of good dogs produced would have been larger, presas would have been more present in shows and finally managed to dominate the breed....let;s be real, a good presa move better, is more estetic and corect anatomically than a "dogo"....
larger number of QUALITY PRESAS in every country would have changed history of the breed...

WHY THERE ARE NOT QUALITY DOGS ??? there are, from curto and here and there few produced by fortune, one in 2-3 litters...why???because the breedings were made WITHOUT TOTAL SUPPORT AND KNOLEDGE....from THE ONLY MAN WHO KNOWS BEST WHAT HE CROSSED 10-15-25 YEARS AGO....


if u look at all the breeders with curto dogs, except presa awangarda, EVERYONE PRODUCES MORE LOW QUALITY AND JUST RARE FINE PRESAS ...that is not ok...and is a pitty, people see those "presas", they see "curto" label on them and conclusion is curto dogs are low quality...
possible breeders, like me, look at all other breeders, see what chances are to produce good dogs, see a LOT OF MISTAKES, lack of knoledge and information and ..go with dogo type or other breeds...

and that is a HUUGE mistake for this breed....

dog defender, what is wrong in selling pups???i do not breed my dog allthough i have some offers and he have incredible qualities that made me love this breed more than any other...
but i won;t breed him.and taht is sad...

i can't afford to breed my dog with a curto dog and produce low quality because i am ashame in front of those who gat the pups and after 2 years they see their dogs are far, far away from mine...is not FAIR to do that...and i better do not make that step



creating and promoting a breed is not a one man show...curto thought it is... maybe for economical reasons, maybe from too much love, but too much love can kill you...

and unfortunatelly, my conclusion is in this case, too much love killed the chances of PERRO DE PRESA to be what should have been....the breed under FCI, legal in every country, one of most capable working breeds out there...

now. in europe, perro de presa mean few good dogs from curto and fewmore produced "by mistake" from curto dogs....and that is pitty..

i wish the things could be different, unfortunatelly they are not..as i said, except presa awangarda and the struggle of few other breedrs to selct based on just few dogs,thaipttymu all...

sad....fortuntlly in US things area little better..blast and others have great dogs... what good is for me??? we will never be able to import dogs from there without FCIpapers, would be too expensive and FOR WAT THAT MUCH EFFORT??? for a breed thatwas born anddeveloped at a day of cardriving???/

is silly.....

all my posts are not something to accuse cuto or anybody else, but a statement of dissapointment and regret....this breed could have been SOMETHING, much more than it is now...

and u know what dog defender??? I AM SICK OF MONEY ISSUE....
u all talk aboutmoney....the hell, i spent on my dog more than 6-7000 USD... who cares about money? whathe offered me in return is much more than money can buy???
u think breeders produces litters for money???
FALSE THEME.....

many of my friends are breeders...bullmastiffs, amstaffs, mastino, argentino, shepheards, any breed u name probably i have a buddy or a good frind involved in...
so u have ANY IDEEA whatbreedingmeas??? how can u have profit from that acivity???

i am telling u: producing small , furry white dogs thatttneed lessspce, food, resources and produces dogs for silly young ladies...

breeding dogs, going in shows, promotnga breed isnot PRFITABE THING...do not lie yourself...
do u have any idea what a dogo or presaprice isin here??? i payed for mine500 usd... the breeder spent 4000 forteparents an prduced onelitter with thoe dogs....

MANY BREEDERS spend more money in dogs than gettin from selling pups...
they offer nursing servces for eaaning money toinvest in wuality dogs, they are groomrs, vets, business man, work 10-12 hour a day to afford 1-2-3 gooddogs....


yes, thee are somestupid bastards who produces dogs for a living..butbelieve me u areVERY VERY WRONG..an let me tellu something dear dogdefender, evey activity have its mf-ers....THAT IS NOT A REASON to compromise a breed ...why look at the empty half of tglass an otat the full half, why notbepostive, optimist, fight for good, beautifull, right???


as i said, formany ofusis sad...anyway i will try give my passion a chnce, i am studying as goodas i can wit thinfo i can get and i will try collborat with FCIdog owners o presa canario lie effa and her breeders, the guys from scandinvian countries and UK an pretty much eve curto dog owner is my friend...andi will try to do something...

but thing COULDHAVEBEEN DIFFRENT FORHISBEED...sad...

[eSPO]

I think everything is turning out just fine for the Presa Canario and it is wise to keep them seperate from the Dogo Canario and its genetics. There are people around the world who are dedicated to the Manuel Curto line of dogs. There are incredible, consistant, and sound dogs from him on almost every continent. Nobody produced 100% outstanding dogs but I cannot think of anybody that has produced so many outstanding Presa Canarios for so long. Look at our own community, look at the dedicated owners among us that have excellent examples of the breed from this kennel. Parentele, you can have the Dogo Canario and its "so called success' the reality is we do not want that kind of success for the Presa. The Dogo Canario is genetically cursed because of the careless breeding of its creators, the CEPRC, now the CEDC. Every day more stories of Dysplasia, poor temperament, ACL tears, cleft palates, epilepsy,heart attack, and other problems come to light. This is the legacy of the Dogo Canario .The list of Dogo breeders that no longer exist do to overwhelming health problems is staggering. The Presa Canario has had consistant dedicated breeders that have stayed true to the breed and its functional abilities since the breed registro and before. The Presa Canario is not going anywhere and thanks to dedicated , intelligent people everywhere, and the real Preseros in Spain ( Canary Islands & mainland) and it will remain with us for the next generation of officianados. Its success will not be determined by meaningless show wins or FCI paperwork. More and more people are communicating , everyday, all over the world to find outstanding Presas and people with the same passions. We have all wanted and worked toward a global cooperative of people that merely want to breed the best Presa possible. It is becoming a reality and money has nothing to do with it.

[Dogdefender]

Parintele, friend, the problem is that M. Curto was work all his life with this breed, he was win his right to sell a product of years and years of selection and work. At the half and end of the way a man can be proud of sell a correct bloodline. But many people buy 2 or 3 dogs, some buy more and have a kennel and are "experts". :confused: Nobody want HAVE this breed, have is have and be happy with this dogs, but many many in one year have a kennel, web page and a lot of publicity. Really do you believe that when this breed will have a price of 10 dollars by dog, they still will have presas?????
And the other problem is that some people work with bad bloodlines of expositions and they don`t work with real, true and fantastic bloodlines. Not many work with Cantadiello, Dels Pechados, Iron Bull, Atlas asio, King Zulu, El Rubio, Bimbaches, Presascan, Asturias dogs, and the mixes of this and other lines, and also other breeders not famous or not public. They need a "sound" name to can win more money with the "sons" and "grandsons" of a famous kennels. Today, the Jardin Canario is not famous, but 15 years ago the people was cut a arm by one puppie.
The problem is that many believes that they can show the sun, and the reality is that don`t know a lot of dogs and bloodlines that are presas, from presa people with many (real) experience and that select under a work- character criteria very different to all prisma of Europe and some americans(not all) "breeders". And in my South America is the same s......

[Paolo Consolandi]

I still see the most of the critics and in some case personal attacks towards Mr Curtò comes from people who don't speak by personal experience.
I've been there two times, and all people I know that have been there have reported the same positive impressions, both about people and dogs.
I mean, we all know he is not the originator of the breed, we are not stupid people, we just recognize his experience and coherence in his job of breeding and supporting the traditional characteristics of the breed, and for this he deserves, in my opinion, our respect.
Of course, have said by Omar, there are other lines too, which are present both in Spain and Canary Islands, which deserves to be studied and investigated. Some names are Bimbaches, Cantadiello, Atlas Asio, and the generations which these dogs have originated. I can assure you that the people which own these dogs are all on the side of the true and traditional Presa Canario. I speak often with people in Spain and I know there is a good number of dogs out there which deserves to be studied and taken into consideration.


Another thing I do not like is to come to a public forum to use such words towards respectable breeders (in general). Before such judgement one should at least have met personally what is talking about, not just seeing pics of dogs and its generations.
Studying pedigree is a fascinating hobby. I have a sort of database and I like to add some entries from time to time and look at the lines too.
But one should not be so arrogant to think that just because he spent some days or hours studying the lines he knows it all.
We have to have much more respect for the breeders out there which have given us the opportunity to study this names and lines, and we have to know which is our position and experience.
I would like also to point out that in Spain now it is possible to register legally the dogs as Presa Canario. The papers of the FCE have the same legal value of the RSCE, you can read the BOE (official gazette of the spanish government) if you do not believe it. Of course, one should renounce to the Dogo Canario status and its ribbons..
About the old same dogo-presa affaire, I will never be tired of saying again that this board is dedicated to those who do not accept the name change and the standard change, and prefer not to participate into the dogo canario for these reasons. For the others, good luck on other boards and best wishes for their future.

Said this I've nothing against Liviu, which I consider a good passionate guy with a very nice dog, but I cannot share his ideas which I consider a wrong elaboration of his passion. Just my thoughts.

[parintele]

ok Paolo,i agree.i quit FCI and WHAT???
move to spain or oth contries to be able to own a prsacanaro i BOUGHT AS DO CANARIO WITH FCI PAPERS???

shoot my dogin the head an be proud a HAD a magnificent presacanio??

WHAT??? do u realize guys WE HAVE PROBLEM???

or is I have a problem, me and many others, and the rest who donotcareabu the laws dont care??? that is ok too butithinkwould have been fair to tell me that whe u sold my dog???

anyway, it does nomatter, i will do what i have to do.

BUT before anything take a brake and look at most of presa ownes in europe excep spain. most of them are FCI REGISTERED and most them because ofthe laws.
u cant ignore all those guys.

asi said, itcouldhav ben different with alargr number of beeders and owners an more support for them. ridiculous dos liek w see today would have nve gain the standard aspect status of the breed

[eSPO]

The paperwork does not make the dog, its the blood. Nobody says not not register a Presa as a Dogo when you have to in order to meet government regulations. We do say keep the functional aspects and health
alive in what you are doing or plan to do.

[parintele]

The paperwork does not make the dog, its the blood. Nobody says not not register a Presa as a Dogo when you have to in order to meet government regulations. We do say keep the functional aspects and health
alive in what you are doing or plan to do.

that is mypoint, f that i struggle. that is why i am expressing my regrets history is no what could have been, there are not much more breeders, much more availble and easy to access infrmatoin, largr gnetic pool ofthose breed lines...
that isall about: as we MUST have papers from FCI for all we do, owning dog and future pups ifany, things are already difficlt cause of limited gnetic pool of fciregstred pesas. the lack of support i wastaking about an more, looking at us likesome betradors, paria, make things muc more difficult...
i understand and respect abeeder's decision but whatshould we do wit alreadyxistng regiteed dogs?


As there ino other way either the quality ad numb will drop or we-ll befced at som point to use oter type of dogs already registed, a thing not desrable atleast frmmy point of view....
and what about the goodpresas regtered? is not a pitty nottuse their genes???technically we loose somyoears of work on the dogs...

is a difficult stuation,that's my point. ianot accusng,i'm trying to figure out asolution an i exress my regrets, that's all...

hopfully we'll manage to figre it out ...
we'll see... difficult stuations mk us stronger and muc more responsable