It's Official

[Juke]

i cant do it anymore. i purchased a presa cause i loved whatt they stood for. the beauty,power,intensity,loyalty,intelligence, and the fact that i would feel safe with one. I made a grave mistake by buying on impluse. what i got was very much less than a presa. fearful,overly submissive,lack of confidence,everything s presa is not. I was totally disappointed in what i had but i stayed the course. i tried puppy classes,going to different trainer,exposing him to new sounds,people,smells. i even took 4 days off of work took him to my grandmother busy farm. lots of land, sounds,lakes,animals and equipment. plenty of exercise,discpline,love and attention. after all of that he contuines to get worse. at almost 11 months hes under 90lbs and is afraid of his own shadow. he will put up a good show but if pushed folds like a bangkok hooker. theres nothing more i can do. finally understand that. hell spend the rest of his day running free on my grandmothers 200+ acres. hes a natural deterent for anyone wanting to come there with his size and barking but i wanted a guard dog a protector. I just want to say thanks to everyone on this board will contuine to look in from time to time. in the future when im ready for another ill b sure to not make the same mistake. once again thanks

[presa_lady]

Aww! :( I'm sorry your first presa experience didn't go well. Sounds like you have given him a good home, even though he hasn't worked out for you. When you say you bought on impulse, does that mean you didn't buy from a breeder? Because a reputable breeder, if made aware of your situation and concerns would attempt to make things correct by you.

[ezra]

How very sad.
Have read your previous posts so as to understand your situation a little more and a few thoughts came to mind.
It seems to me, youve been worrying about this dog from the moment you got him. In one respect I fully understand, you sought advice regularly so as to do the best by him and so on. On the other hand, do you think that you were perhaps expecting a bit too much too soon from your pup?
If I read acurately, he is not quite a year old, which in Presa terms, is still a baby. Would you expect your young child to be fearless and guard / protect you or visa versa?
With all due respect, although you have been doing the right thing by socializing him etc, by getting rid of him already you are not giving him a chance and pushing him to the point he folds has been a huge mistake.
Having said that, I wouldnt beat myself up about it because he will probably have a much better time running free at your grandmothers than stressing over not living up to your expectations.
(I hope I havnt offended, this is just my opinion, I am no expert.)

[eSPO]

Juke, ya know , I scroll up and I click on "search" , and I type in "Juke" in the "find post by author " line. I read the posts that you have put up since you have had your puppy. I feel sorry for you. I think the biggest mistake you made was your first one. I think you should have checked out the breeder, the pedigree and their stock more thoroughly before acting. I don`t want to come across mean or cold, its a shame you seem like you would make a great owner. You took a shot at a puppy with fear issues and it didn`t work. I hope one day you get a real Presa from a reputable breeder and get some satisfaction. I really do.

[Juke]

azsepo your right that was my first mistake. the lady i purschased him from was a byb she showed me her dogs and said all the right names. Sanders,red star,crown presa. I purschased my pup on the limited info i recieved from books and the two people i had meet that owned presas. it was only after i had him that i learned about Sanders,about temp testing,early socialization,and the sensitivity of the mastiff blood. and my comment about him folding i didnt push him hard. knock at the door and ill have someone just walk in. he didnt know who it was and would bark at the sound at the but when they walk in he runs. he has this thing where if he sees something that hes not sure of he stops and shakes. the shaking and the look of absolute terror is very :( I've tried and it seems that the older he gets the worse he is. my pitbull pup seems to have more heart than he, and my pit is only 4 month old. like i said i tried my breeder lied to me bout what i would be getting and i didnt educate myself enough on the breed bfore. but he it was a learning experince and i wont make the same mistake again

[kaner6]

Juke,

Sorry to hear about the dog. I can imagine how frustrating it is. I just want to emphasize how important it is to neuter this dog so it cannot add to the gene pool. I don't want to sound insensitive but it is important for this type of a dog not to be able to pass on his genetic make-up.

Again, I don't mean any disrespect but I am worried that this is the type of dog that becomes a fear biter. Please take all of the precautions necessary to not allow this to happen. The last thing we need is news of a Presa mauling because of the dogs short-comings.

Don't give up on the breed. There are good ones out there.

Later

Justin

[ezra]

[quote="Juke"] ".......and my comment about him folding i didnt push him hard. knock at the door and ill have someone just walk in. he didnt know who it was and would bark at the sound at the but when they walk in he runs. he has this thing where if he sees something that hes not sure of he stops and shakes. the shaking and the look of absolute terror is very :( I've tried and it seems that the older he gets the worse he is."

Poor dog

quote="kaner6" "Sorry to hear about the dog. I can imagine how frustrating it is. I just want to emphasize how important it is to neuter this dog so it cannot add to the gene pool. I don't want to sound insensitive but it is important for this type of a dog not to be able to pass on his genetic make-up."

Good point

[blas_t]

I am not trying to be rude here, just trying to understand.
my pitbull pup seems to have more heart than he, and my pit is only 4 month old. l

Why would you acquire another puppy , right in the middle of trying to adjust a troubled pup in your home?
Seems like rushing out and buying a presa without research isnt the only bad decision you made.

[Juke]

blas_t i noticed that u like comin on the ass end of things and postin your 2cents. isaved that puppy from being used as a bait dog. i have owned several dogs at a time and felt like it was the right thing to do. what the hell does me ownin more than one dog have to do with the problem one has. if anything it could Juke come around like it did for a short period. I didnt post so that u could come by and tell me what i did wrong.everyone else with thoughtful comments and wiishesthank you . my ppup had problems when i first got him. i did all i could as a responsible owner to him. But for u to come on here and try and tell me what i did wrong without knowin the whole suitation is bullshit. THANKS

[blas_t]

Take it easy buddy. All I asked was why you would choose to get another pup at that time? You had your hands full trying to work the one pup through his problems. I found it strange to pick then to get another pup.
Sorry you took it so personally, but i never said once what i thought you did wrong.

[Juke]

Why would you acquire another puppy , right in the middle of trying to adjust a troubled pup in your home?
Seems like rushing out and buying a presa without research isnt the only bad decision you made.

that is where u said i did something wrong. didnt take it personnally but im a good owner and dont need u questionin what i do

[LawrenceandHaney]

Juke,

Very sorry to hear about the situation. When you first began to post I truly though there was hope for your pup. As the eternal optimist I still think he will mature and outgrow some of this behaviour. With that said, if you are not 100% happy with your dog in time you will not be 100% committed. I admire and respect the dificult decision you made. I am also glad that this Pup will have a wonderful life in open space.

If I recall correctly you are from Louisiana....a place where I lived for many years and I am quite fond of. Haney spent his first year there and loved the heat and space that Louisiana provides.

Last, getting him neutered if he is not already, is a great suggestion. A simple operation will eliminated another potential owner's dissapointment. Keep your head up and you will find a great Presa in time. Good luck and keep us all posted on this pup :ok:

[Fred]

"it was only after i had him that i learned about Sanders,about temp testing,early socialization,and the sensitivity of the mastiff blood."

I've never heard of the mastiff blood sensitivity thing. Could someone explain this to me.
Not trying to thread hijack :angel:

Thanks

[blas_t]

I still think you did something wrong, which is my opinion. If you cant see I am right, you will end up making more mistakes i am sure.

If you dont realise that young pups learn from older dogs they are around, you are a fool. And to risk some of your presa pups negitive behavior problems rubbing off on the new one makes no sence.

Getting a new pup should be a happy exciting time. A time when you have lots of time and energy to spend socializing and conditioning your new pup into a productive life. Not strongly with another pup that is showing signs of social issues.

[Juke]

being that my presa was was so submissive he actually learned from my pitbul pup. for awhile my presa followed my pitbull. age has nothing to do wit who follows who. pack dymanics do. the pitbull came in and overnite domanited my presa. you could see that my presa followed the pup and was actually inmatatiing him. either way your i know i did what was right for both of my dogs and will contuine to do so best wishes to u and everyone else.

[Drazhar]

being that my presa was was so submissive he actually learned from my pitbul pup. for awhile my presa followed my pitbull. age has nothing to do wit who follows who. pack dymanics do. the pitbull came in and overnite domanited my presa. you could see that my presa followed the pup and was actually inmatatiing him. either way your i know i did what was right for both of my dogs and will contuine to do so best wishes to u and everyone else.

what man? of course age has something to do with it... if you have a young submisive pup that is "scared of its own shadow" had it not occured to you that having another dog kick its arse will beat the crap out of its confidence? to try and get it out of this or prevent it you should play games with it and when it starts to struggle actually let it win and some other simple methods. if you actually take the time to learn something about upbring of pups, you will notice this....

[surfnplay12]

I hate to break it to all you puppy rasing experts but what happend here is real simple HE BOUGHT A PEICE OF SHIT!!!! thats all he is guilty of none of the other stuff matters this dog was a POS plain and simple. This is why I laugh at people who spend all this time and money trying to fix dogs like this. Put it down and move on and next time go to a good breeder. If breeders culled this poor guy wouldn't have had this problem in the first place. There's somthing for all the breeders on this board to think off :confused:

[Juke]

surf i totally agree i did buy a POS!! I learned that a few months having him and tried to do the best i could to at least get him balanced. nothing worked. Just for the record my young pup didnt whip him or push him around, he is not fearful of dog but actually has some dog agression. the young pup was simply there when we went out and would go to loud sounds large objects and people and encourged my boy. raised many pups and this is really my first submissive dog. never ehad on to this degree and didnt know what to do. talked to many trainers and having a playmate was recommended. but its nice to know so many people on here are certified trainers. i really shows :rolleyes: :ok:

[J@ckson]

Put it down and move on and next time go to a good breeder. Wow, you've got a heart of gold. Are you available to babysit?

[surfnplay12]

One thing you will notice is not many people have the stones to do what is nessary when they get a POS. I personally would never sell a pet quality dog. Why and I will give credit to slamm for this because this is the first place I heard it and I totally agree why put out a subpar example of the breed so people that have never seen one before see this and think thats what a presa's like :confused: There is more shit dogs in this breed than I care to think about and its because people think that all you have to do is get the hips done and see if the dog barks at the fence and breed them and now your a breeder and know everything. The only thing that seperate's good breeders from bad breeder's in this breed right know is hip test how sad :cry:

[Juke]

i was thinkin of puttin my boy down but my grandma loves him. he does have a natural defensivness :oops: but hes goin to get the snip snip done on his b-dayand spend the rest of his days just running around barking at cows chicken horses other dogs goats and the like. sub par dog shouldnt be breed this breed already has so many uncertanities that only the best of the best should b kept intact. with that i totally agree. the stronger the breeding pool the better the outcome.

[jweissg]

Surf,

While I agree that breeders should breed for temp, function, and health, I strongly disagree with your solution. Maybe this dog isnt the perfect example of presa perfection. Maybe he is a POS.

If you can provide the dog with an opportunity to live out its life in happiness without fear of it hurting someone or passing along its poor genetic material, why not? Why not take the opportunity to learn from it? If you can learn and employ techniques that make this POS dog less of a basketcase, imagine what you can do with what you have learned when you buy a genetically sound dog?

Only an ignorant ***hole would see one specimen of an entire breed and conclude that presas are typically nervous wrecks. Why would you base such an important decision (one deciding life or death) on an ignorant ***hole's opinion? If that were a serious concern, I would consider finding new acquantainces.

Juke, sorry things havent worked out as you planned with your dog. I think you are making the right decision with him. Best of luck.

Joe

[surfnplay12]

I guess you never heard that first impressions are everything? Thats the world we live in this is a rare breed and if you don't know someone with one you might never see another one so if the one and only one they see is sub par example what do you think will happen? I didn't get into all the reason's why I wouldn't sell these types of dog how about when you turn your back and that nerve bag takes a bite out of your four year old then saving that POS life is not so neat anymore is it. You can argue this round and round and I am sure many have had the argument with other use to be great breeds and look at were they are now? Eliminating these dogs from the gene pool is the only guarnteed way to make sure they don't pass on these genes or due damage to the breed in other ways.

[Kiroman]

I have to agree with Casey, why would you want a POS dog out there, representing the breed? We are not talking about breeds such as Dalmatians here (which is a whole other can of worms) that the public has the perception as being noble dogs, sitting right nest to the fireman. When I talk to MANY people about the type of dog I am getting; many time the first thing I hear is about how dangerous these dog are and how they have killed people in the past. Hell, I don't even have a pup yet, and I defend the breed for as long as it takes (luckily I read bunches and provide documented stats on various breeds and bites) :ok: and try to educate them about the breed, abiet I am not expert, but I do my best :D

I am happy for that Juke was able to find a home for soon-to-be nut less dog. But not everyone has a grandma that has tons of land where the dog can live out his life. I think Juke was terribly lucky that things did not turn out WAY worse in this situation. My condolences go out to him, as I could only imagine how hard this was on him with the amount of time, money, and effort he put into this dog, and I only wish him the best of luck next time.

I am getting a pup in a few weeks, I am going to raise him with love and discipline; putting forth the best possible life he can have in all aspects, and dedicate all it take to raise a great dog. BUT if at any time I see this dog turns out to be a fearful and dangerous POS (and have him evaluated by people who know much more than me), I WOULD NOT HESITATE FOR A SECOND to send him to doggie heaven.

Call me a heartless SOB, but I have a wife and son to worry about, and I think it takes a bigger man to do that!!

[Drazhar]

surf i totally agree i did buy a POS!! I learned that a few months having him and tried to do the best i could to at least get him balanced. nothing worked. Just for the record my young pup didnt whip him or push him around, he is not fearful of dog but actually has some dog agression. the young pup was simply there when we went out and would go to loud sounds large objects and people and encourged my boy. raised many pups and this is really my first submissive dog. never ehad on to this degree and didnt know what to do. talked to many trainers and having a playmate was recommended. but its nice to know so many people on here are certified trainers. i really shows :rolleyes: :ok:

ok so NOW you say he is not fearful but you like to contradict your self by keep saying he submissive and afraid of his own shadow...? give me a break here man....and yes you obviously got your self a bad example presa but what im saying about the thing you did with bringing in the APT is NOT HELP the SITUATION!, its not very hard to keep it from being a submissiive dog ya know.....sure the breeding was a factor in this (a big one) but the upbring wasnt the best either....im not taking a dig at you but in the future just think about things more..

[Kiroman]

Nice Job with starting to make personal attacks on someone there Drazhar, REAL mature.

You may not agree with culling, not everyone does, but I would be willing to bet, this breed and MANY more would be in a better status is more breeders did. I am by no mean is saying it is something pleasent but neccessary.

I believe Casey (Surf) did not mean at the first sight of problems he would put a pup down, but if a dog is a fearful, unpredictable basket case, he is a doing a public service by culling the pup / dog, and if you can not see that, please let me know where you live, so I make sure I never bring my family around to that part if the country!!

[Juke]

he is not fearful of other dogs. simply sounds large objects and somettimes lil kids. he has never been afraid of dogs nor have i ever said he was. when i brought the apt in that was to be a temp suitation. they got along so well and he seemed to be helpin him come out some. when something my apt didnt like he barked and moved forward. it actually helped my presa to do so SOME. when a loud sound happened instead of running my apt barks. my presa on the other hand would run the look in that direction. my apt for a while helped him. he no longer worries bout the trash can or loud car sounds if we are al together. butt i dont want a sometime presa. and his upbringing was fine i hav only had my apt for lil over a month now. and being tha i had to start to socialize my apt i also had to double time my presa socialization.

[Drazhar]

Nice Job with starting to make personal attacks on someone there Drazhar, REAL mature.

You may not agree with culling, not everyone does, but I would be willing to bet, this breed and MANY more would be in a better status is more breeders did. I am by no mean is saying it is something pleasent but neccessary.

I believe Casey (Surf) did not mean at the first sight of problems he would put a pup down, but if a dog is a fearful, unpredictable basket case, he is a doing a public service by culling the pup / dog, and if you can not see that, please let me know where you live, so I make sure I never bring my family around to that part if the country!!

yess please dont ever come near me, as i have not invited you anyway...and you would probably want to cull my dog. lol!

anyway all i was saying is there are other ways around this...just like juke found out...if you do read the posts you will see the dog is now gonna be happy living on a huge peice of land and will probably have fun! and also i bet his grandmother will get pleasure out of owning the dog, which is alot more use than anyone would get out of it if it was dead!... theres always another way around things, im glad juke has given it to his granp[arents instead of simply killing it and its gonna get fixed so it CANT reproduce, which in my eyes is a good thing for the breed... just coz one is bad, dont mean it should be dead but fixing it and not allowing it to reproduce is the best thing to do.....

IMO.

[Drazhar]

[quote="Juke"] and his upbringing was fine [quote]

like i said man, its just a few things you said that went down that DIDNT help the situation!.

[Fred]

Hey.... I might as well throw my *expert* opinion in on this :D
I've seen it go both ways. I've seen seemingly confident dogs feed off of another one's fear, and I've seen bundles of nerves relax if they see the more confident one isn't bothered by whatever's going on. It all depends on who the dog in charge is, and if for some reason it was indeed the younger APBT puppy that became leader, then it just might have helped calm down the presa to see him unaffected by things that in the past bothered the presa.

Now, that said.... the real reason I posted was because since this topic got ressurected.... I'd still like to hear about the Mastiff/sensitivity thing. Juke, you brought it up. Is it just something you heard the phrase, but don't know what it means? I've never heard it and just want to know what it's all about, if anyone knows.....

Thanks

[surfnplay12]

Draz you tell me what the best thing to do your the expert? Nerve bags are a liability who are you going to put in jepordy with a dog that will bite out of fear you obiviously don't know much about dogs and show it. I really got a kick out of your go to the dogo board comment you shouldn't talk bad about that half of your dogs family didn't your (mummy or dady :confused: lol) Teach you any manners.

And to your comment on culling you sound like an idot in working dog arena's because culling is used as a tool. But hey keep makeing comments and showing every body how smart you are :ok:

[Juke]

when i talk bout mastiff blood i mean that they naturally aloff and distrusting with strangers. if not socialized at a young age or interact with there pack(your family) can become shy and fearful more so than other breeds. several trainers and breeder i have talked to spoke of this to me. again about the fact that i did something wrong. no one can comment on that cause you weren't here. trainers,exercise,vet test,time callin and talkin to people. any and everything i could hav done i did. taking in a pup at a young age was not a mistake. The pup came in and was instantly the alpha even though he was sick. i saw that my presa was following my pit and trying to do what did. my pit even taught my male to lift his leg to piss!! i saw the slight improvements he was makin i talkd to different trainers and was told as long as he was making improvements to contuine working both of them. the only mistake i made like surf said was buyin a POS. that i can admit im guilty of. it was a learning experince and wont make the same mistake again.

[Kiroman]

I wish you the best of luck in the future, you made a great point, NO ONE was there to see any of the actions you took with the dog or the dogs interactions so NO ONE can judge you, my one advice, never take advice from this Draz character :ok:

[Boa]

I guess the hard thing about this type of post is that everyone has their own opinion and understand of certain items you described Juke. When you use words like “afraid of his own shadow” and “what I got was very much less than a presa: fearful, overly submissive, lack of confidence, everything a presa is not”; these statements mean are clear to you because you have seen him in action, but without the ability to observe the pup ourselves we are forced to try and understand from a limited vanish point.

You also have to be careful that you don’t expect too much out of an animal to early in the game by take peoples words and the descriptions of some “Super Breeders” to think that a “true Presa” will never have a fearful period or do something that may be reminiscent of a “cowardly dog move”. All dogs go through certain fear periods, but that does not mean that they will not grow to be true guardians. I would also feel better if I knew that he was full grown and still not performing up to par rather than still being an 11 month old pup. I totally understand the unique nature of a Presa, but as you have witness here, and with other topics on this board, this breed brings out the choice words like wild fire. You also cannot compare dogs and different breed to one another just like you cannot compare your children to one another do to the development stages each one goes through at different times.

Lastly, if you would have said he had been evaluated by someone who truly knew the breed and was qualified in making the diagnosis that you came up with I think many would be more comfortable with you giving up on him so early, but I remember you saying something to the fact that he had “some problems from the onset”, which when translated means you should have left him with the person you bought him from period and never buy an animal on an impulse, which you have clearly already admitted was a grave mistake my friend.

So alas the decision has already been made and I am glad it worked out for all involved. :ok:

[Fred]

when i talk bout mastiff blood i mean that they naturally aloff and distrusting with strangers. if not socialized at a young age or interact with there pack(your family) can become shy and fearful more so than other breeds. several trainers and breeder i have talked to spoke of this to me.

Thanks for expounding, Juke :ok: . I haven't experienced this myself or heard of it, but that obviously doesn't mean it doesn't exist or others don't feel that way. Interesting.

[surfnplay12]

Hey draz I'm done responding until you learn how to communicate like an adult ,ie learn how to spell. I not saying this is an english class and everybody has misspelled words but my god man I have to read your post over and over becuase there so screwed up. I mean( mummy and dady )you have to be kidding me :eek: leave the smart remarks for us grown ups that can spell :ok: .

[Drazhar]

and actually while im at it, whats wrong with mummy and dady?

you are another one of these people that have nothing better to do than reignite old flames for no reason....my spelling is not that bad! and if i accidently misspell something, then tough really coz to people like you...i couldnt care less on what you think!! now get back to your lifeless way and reignite some other flame with usuless comments or if your so great why not go be an english teacher?

[surfnplay12]

This guy is great he has made himself look like a tool on two boards in one night LMAO!!! I tell you what (coz lol) your sure good for a laugh! ;) [/quote]

[Drazhar]

This guy is great he has made himself look like a tool on two boards in one night LMAO!!! I tell you what (coz lol) your sure good for a laugh! ;) [/quote]

dunno what your little messed up quote thing is for... but hey if im good for a laugh then atleast i have 1 use.... which is 1 more than you have :rolleyes:

PS and yes im a tool but im that sharper tool in the shed next to your blunt arse, thanks for the compliment.... :ok:

[Kiroman]

Intelligence abounds with this one...