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[surfnplay12]

This was posted on the dogo board by one of there moderators and since they post stuff of our board I felt I would do the same :D . They wonder why we have a problem with there philosphy. I want to get people's thoughts does anybody agree with this statement?

Define Functional? Do you mean its athletic ability , or Sport work. Most people dont want or need a functional animal, in regards to doing sport work. They want a guard dog, more specificly they want a deterrent. They want a dog that looks intimidating and that woulc give a wold be criminal second thoughts. Very few people have the ability to house or keep a Sport dog. Most dont have access to a decent trainer. If the Dog is a loyal companion, member of the family, then for them it is performing a function.

Just change the breed to what ever suits your lifstyle best. We have chumps like this breeding dogs and wondering why everybody dosent jump on board and agree with them. And this guy is complaining about curto :ok: What a loser![/b]

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Define Functional? Do you mean its athletic ability , or Sport work.

Athleticisim is a fundatmental attribute to beeing a good guard/protection dog. I can see it now... He could have bit the intruder if He could have jumped higher than the top of the counter....... :D :P



Very few people have the ability to house or keep a Sport dog

This is an absurd statement. What is it about a sports dog vs anyother dog that makes them so much harder to keep?

[eSPO]

In other words "what I`m really saying I know my dogs won`t cut it in a working program so I need to state my belief that as long as they look mean and bark I am a good breeder" There are a lot of idiots out there breeding these dogs and have no business breeding them, or any working breed, in the Dogo scene most of them meet at the same watering hole. From time to time , I read some of the posts there and I laugh so hard ....... then I realize how sad and embarrassing it really is.

[Dogdefender]

That people only search excuses, to breed a dog that it seems outside like a rustic dog, but that is a Labrador Retriever by inside.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

In other words "what I`m really saying I know my dogs won`t cut it in a working program so I need to state my belief that as long as they look mean and bark I am a good breeder" There are alot of idiots out there breeding these dogs and have no business breeding them, or any working breed

Yes, and that is what a lot breeders are saying that do not work their dogs in a legitimate working program?

Im breeding, I have determined my dogs are worth breeding (especially to make money) but I dont have a clue how they would do in a legitimate working program.....

[Fred]

Yeah.... I suppose I agree with that statement for the most part. And I don't even know who posted it.

Define Functional? Do you mean its athletic ability , or Sport work.
***honest question.

Most people dont want or need a functional animal, in regards to doing sport work. They want a guard dog, more specificly they want a deterrent. They want a dog that looks intimidating and that woulc give a wold be criminal second thoughts.
***I don't compete in sporting events. I don't live in a bad neighborhood. I don't need a dog to catch and hold livestock. I would just as soon the dog put up a display if someone drives onto my property or knocks on my door. Yes, this is definitely me.
Now, would it be nice if the dog could "carry things out" further? Of course! But I don't need it to.

Very few people have the ability to house or keep a Sport dog.
***From what I've heard about the herding breed sport dogs..... this is probably true.

Most dont have access to a decent trainer.
***Nobody decent around me, but I know some people will send their companion off to be trained, so I guess technically I have that same access.

If the Dog is a loyal companion, member of the family, then for them it is performing a function.
***I don't agree with this. It IS NOT performing a function by just living, but it's really all I require of a dog. Be loyal, alert me when someone's around, be well behaved and social, but make potential bad guys think twice. Again, I think for the most part, that those statements are anything MOST OF US want or need from our pet.

[eSPO]

I would agree that the majority of people want a good companion/guardian.
I would also state the people breeding these dogs should breed the dog that will make the least demanding owners as happy as possible (Joe and Mary Six Pack) and and the most demanding owners as happy as possible. ( Timmy B Title) Breeding to the minimum requirements of the majority of owners is not breeding, it is called destroying a breed. Most people only want a dog that will wag its tail when they come home , let them pet it for a minute and get lost when they tell it to. Anyone can breed for that. . . . . . thats the
people who this thread is dedicated to. I have read these people talk about their dogs have "heat and fire" and the only thing they have to do with heat or fire is that they`ve almost burnt their kennels down ! CLUE LESS !

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

***I don't compete in sporting events. I don't live in a bad neighborhood. I don't need a dog to catch and hold livestock. I would just as soon the dog put up a display if someone drives onto my property or knocks on my door.

Then people should breed and own shelties... and not Presas, do not water down the breed. I have a neighbor that has some shelties that are great "alarm" dogs and put up a hell of a fence fight!!! :D

Again the more athletic a dog is and if He/She has the right temperment the better deterent, the better PP/Guard dog it will be.

[jweissg]

This basis of this argument is set in the difference of percetption and reailty.

Many, unfortunately maybe most, people think that perception is reality. Jaguar is perceived to be a quality automobile and fetches price premiums as a result. In reality, very few Jaguars recieve any awards from Consumer Reports or other similar publications. Similarly, many people would perceive a mastiff to be an able guardian. Remember these are the dogs that helped spread the empires of old. These are the great conquerers. Nowadays, you are more likely to find a mastiff conquering a couch than serving as a protector. Dog people know this. How long until everyone knows this and "perception" has changed?

Perception does not breed reality. It is the other way around. A breed that has members who, in reality, are capable defenders will be percieved as such even if particular members exist who are not capable defenders. As that number decreases, perception begins to change. Perception is a result of reality. Very few people who know dogs would consider a mastiff to be a deterent because, in reality, they typically are not. It is only a matter of time until perception completely catches up with reality.

Therein lies the catch. TIME. Too many people are sucked in by instant gratification. The argument against the necessity for proper temp and function is really an argument for here and now gratification. Why do it the hard way is the easy way works for now? Why not make the money? That argument is not thinking 20, 50, 100 years down the line to the future of the breed.

Is my presa protectoin trained? No. Do I really know much about protecton training? Not other than what I have read. Do I believe he is capable of protecting me/mine? Yes. Because he is not formally trained, I would not rely on it, but I believe he would and could protect me. In reality, all he needs to do is slow someone down enough for me to reach back for my gun.

Joe

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Perception is a result of reality.

Your failing to factor in a very important dyanamic "Delusion"

[eSPO]

Why do it the hard way if the easy way works for now? Why not make the money? That argument is not thinking 20, 50, 100 years down the line to the future of the breed.

Yes this is the mentality to which this thread is dedicated. I couldnt agree more Joseph.

[jdunson]

You know the real problem is that people do not understand what these dogs were breed for. I will be the first to admit that the more research and reading that I do the more I have come to understand. A presa must have a certain level of prey drive in them or else they are not a Presa by definition of the name. If you are breeding, even passively, mild temp. dogs you are not breeding Presas plain and simple. If you have people coming to buy one of your dogs for the looks of it or for a dog that just lies around as a family pet you should not be selling them a Presa. What happens is the possibility of making money blinds some people's eyes to dangers not just to the buyer but to the Presa community also.

I myself was very causious and concerned getting my dogs into pp or psa work. I had many discussions with others on this board about the desire to see our dogs in other venues other than pp ring. But as I began reading and really coming to understand the thought process that went behind of the old preseros, I began to see that not training them and giving them an outlet for their natural abilities,I was doing them more harm than good.

These dogs are not for everyone. If you can not turn down sells with glaring issues because of the money, you need to get out of this breed.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

If you can not turn down sells with glaring issues because of the money, you need to get out of this breed.

Amen

[surfnplay12]

My deal is I don't care what you want the dog for the dog is what it is (or should be) wether you use it or not is a different story thats no excuse to water down the breed. I may be wrong but since when does the presa have to be for everyone? If its not for you sorry you should pick your breed based on your needs and the dog that best fit them. I don't think there are two many rabbit hunters trying to make a mally a rabbit dog but why not they like mallys and they like to hunt rabbits it would be perfect :rolleyes: .

[presa_lady]

These dogs are not for everyone. If you can not turn down sells with glaring issues because of the money, you need to get out of this breed.
Agreed!!

In reality, all he needs to do is slow someone down enough for me to reach back for my gun.
100% Agreed!!

Most people dont want or need a functional animal, in regards to doing sport work. They want a guard dog, more specificly they want a deterrent. They want a dog that looks intimidating and that woulc give a wold be criminal second thoughts.
***I don't compete in sporting events. I don't live in a bad neighborhood. I don't need a dog to catch and hold livestock. I would just as soon the dog put up a display if someone drives onto my property or knocks on my door. Yes, this is definitely me.
Now, would it be nice if the dog could "carry things out" further? Of course! But I don't need it to.

I agree with you here Fred. But I'm looking forward to trying to compete with my presa. Thankfully, I live in a safe neighborhood, but in the event that would change, I already have put my presa up for display. Luckily for me I honestly feel that if need be my girl would "carry things out" further. Having her able to do that performs a great function for me. :ok:

[Fred]

I have a neighbor that has some shelties that are great "alarm" dogs and put up a hell of a fence fight!!! :D

True, if that's all you want, but then you get rid of the "intimidation" factor and you get a breed with an entirely different temperament.
Analogy... it's just like buying a car. You want something you like the looks of and serves your purpose. Why would I purchase something I don't like the looks of and doesn't perform the way I expect or I need???

And I'm just disecting that original statement the way I read it... I did not see where all this watering down the breed talk was implied, but I did not see how it was originally posted and in what context.

I do not require my dogs be responsible for me.... I am responsible for them and if that makes me Joe six pack, so be it. I am quite happy that Tursa can be inside my business and let customers in the door when I'm around.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Analogy... it's just like buying a car. You want something you like the looks of and serves your purpose. Why would I purchase something I don't like the looks of and doesn't perform the way I expect or I need???

Fred would you buy a Lamborgini and with a 1968 Volksawagon engine it just because the Lambo looks like it performs? or would you want it to really be able to perform like a Lambo? ... as my tag line reads.....

If you expect and desire something less than the breed should be about, do you put this desire above what the breed should be and hurt the quality of the breed?


2 Shelties barking up a storm when someone approaches will keep burgulars etc away... they dont want the attention and they do not know whether they will be bit or not.

[eSPO]

Fred and everybody else has the right to own any dog they please. I am very impressed by the guardian characteristics of the breed and a large deterrent can be ,and has been ,valuable in preventing crime and tresspass. Breeders have the responsibility of breeding functional and temperamentally sound dogs with all of their potential. All their horsepower and handling enhancements , if you will. I think most of these people want to breed lazy, void of temperament, dogs so they can sell to irresponsible people with no worries. It goes with the puppy miller attitude to sell as many puppies as posssible with the least of complications. They should be breeding cows not dogs.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Fred and everybody else has the right to own any dog they please. Yes, of course, but the question is, does one put what pleases t hem above what is best for the breed and what the breed should be.


I am very impressed by the guardian characteristics of the breed and a large deterrent can be ,and has been ,valuable in preventing crime and tresspass. Some yes, some no, many claims, few objective "proofs".

Breeders have the responsibility of breeding functional and temperamentally sound dogs with all of their potential. All their horsepower and handling enhancements , if you will. I think most of these people want to breed lazy, void of temperament, dogs so they can sell to irresponsible people with no worries.

Yes, and people that want to buy poser dogs support these breeders and are part of the problem.

It goes with the puppy miller attitude to sell as many puppies as posssible with the least of complications. They should be breeding cows not dogs

But if I want a dog that looks like a cow... I have the right to own the dog I please... right? :P

[Fred]

Fred would you buy a Lamborgini and with a 1968 Volksawagon engine it just because the Lambo looks like it performs? or would you want it to really be able to perform like a Lambo? ... as my tag line reads.....

If you expect and desire something less than the breed should be about, do you put this desire above what the breed should be and hurt the quality of the breed?


2 Shelties barking up a storm when someone approaches will keep burgulars etc away... they dont want the attention and they do not know whether they will be bit or not.

Everyone always has to compare extremes :rolleyes:
By physical deterrant the dog should have some substance, something that can't be kicked out of the way and has some type of guarding instinct in its makeup that would make a would-be thief think twice. Let's compare Rotts to Presas, not something so extreme. I did not say the dog should be only an alarm without being physically imposing. I said it is all MOST people require.
Just like most people don't need the 500hp Shelby Mustang.... they'll be perfectly happy with a 300hp GT.

And, I did not state that this is what people should breed for. I guess I'll have to go back and read the original quote, because I didn't think that is what that person was saying either. They were merely stating what most people would be happy with....
after all, how many people actually use the breed the way it was originally intended?

[surfnplay12]

Why not get another breed? What most people will be happy with and were the breed should be are in opposite directions. My point is breeders should breed presa's to be presa's if they are two much for some to handel sorry I would rather that be the case than breeding a dog that is not really a presa. The person who posted this was using that statement to justify the fact that what he does is allright because thats all the dog most people will need a dog that stands there and looks mean. Reguardless if the dog is a piece of S***.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Everyone always has to compare extremes

The more rationale a precept/statment is the better it maintains it's rationality when taken to an extreme. If there is an irrationality in a precept/statement, taking it to an extreme will amplify and expose the irrationality.

[eSPO]

I certainly hope that Fred is not uncomfortable when I single him out. I believe that owners like Fred set a valuable example. Whether Fred started out wanting a PP Dog, or a guardian companion, or whatever, at least he supported a breeder that breeds to maintain the attributes and qualities of the breed. He didnt go to the latest Wannabe breeder and get his dog. I saw the breed and fell in love with their appearance and speed, athleticism and drive. I knew this was a dog that required exercise and activity to keep it truly happy. I agree when people use statements like this to make excuses to breed so so foo foo dogs it would be better if they were into cacapoos. The Presa was never meant to be for everybody and dogs that do not have the proper temperament are not Presas. We must make it clear that the Presa is not a vicious dog. It is a dog that is loyal,loving and trustworthy with the family and wary of strangers. The degree of wariness is controlled by genetics and socialization. ... I mean if I want a super hard, non social, unpredictable dog all I do is get a dog from dogs with excellent temperament , deprive him of socialization in his formative months , work him in defense all the time and chain his ass up the rest of the time. ... if I want a family companion /protector I take that same dog, socilaize the nuts off him, teach him basic obedience from a young age, let him be in the house as a part of the family so it becomes his territory. I train when find a qualified trainer who has trained PP dogs
that are social family dogs as well, (most PP dogs are like this contrary to popular belief) Either way I must have a dog with a certain amount of courage and hardness to begin with. Even though the sensory deprived, non social , snarling , defense monster is easier to create his purpose is one dimensional and a bigger liability than an asset in most hands. When we were younger and raced our cars on the boulevard you had two kinds of cars. One was very racy, fat tires, jacked up in the rear, big hood air intakes, loud exhaust, one look said "FAST CAR" the other was a "sleeper"
a normal looking car where all the performance was in the motor and the
suspension. Great pains were taken to make the car look totally stock.
I loved the sleeper cars, the understatement, the fact that they looked like granny owned it and they would pull up to a light next to a "FAST CAR" and get laughed at when they revved the motor and you could barely hear
the finely tuned exhaust. Then the "Sleeper" would blow the doors off the overdone, too loud, have to see me, hot rod. I guess this is how I like my dogs. As far as looks go the Pres isn`t much of a sleeper, it is an impressive ,scary looking dog to some. Its temperament is that of a "sleeper" it can be just as happy with the kids sitting on it as it is in a full blown competition, the old days are different than today. The Presa temperament is a sleeper because it can go from an idle to red line in two seconds flat and then can cool off just as fast. Today the competition is different than the old days but the attributes given to the breed by the tasks of yesterday should all be there. Today competition can be anything that allows it to highlight its speed , strength,agility, drive, tenacity and controllability. More people need to get out and do something with them and support the breeders that do. You may never "race" it, but if your going to bet your life or the security of your family on it, you had better prove it before you need it.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Fred has always been cool with me.. cannot go to long with anyone and not have a difference of perspective eventually. A friendly, civil debate is always cool

[Fred]

My car in my youth was jacked up AND the motor was built :ok: :)

Could someone point me in the direction of where that post was gotten? Like I keep saying, when I dissected it I must have missed the subject it was supporting. The way I read it, that post is saying what most people want or require. Obviously you guys know more than I do because I don't read anywhere in it where it supports watering down the breed. I'm agreeing with what ya'll have said, but I don't see how it correlates to what Surf copied and pasted.

And Dennis.... I don't mind you comparing apples to oranges. It's when you compare apples to hamburger..... I mean, let's keep it in the same foodgroup anyway ;)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Fred. I kept it in the auto industry. :P

The way I read it, that post is saying what most people want or require.

If someone requires something that looks like a Lambo but performance like a 1968 Volkswagon and people a Lamborgini start producing to fulfill there "requirement" "sic".. then you get a watered down Lamborgini...

If someone requires something that looks like a Presa but performs like a Toy Poodle (Golden Retriever if you do not like the extreme) then breeders start breeding and happily making money on Presas with "small engines". This waters down the breed. I say, buy a different breed and stop making careers for Professional B.Sers and puppy millers

[jdunson]

SteelFistVelvetGlove

Totally agree with your comment. Forget about what people want is my motto. If you want a particular syle of dog that does not fit the description of a Presa, that's fine I would be more than happy to point you in the right direction. This is how we all have got to look at it. It's not a point of watering down the breed, it's about selling people a dog that we know is not going to be a fit for their needs nor those of the dog.

[Fred]

What if I want a real Lambo, but I only drive the speed limit?
Why would the car's integrity and performance need changed because I don't race it? I want the option to go fast.... but I don't require it in everyday situations. Will the car perform if I need it to? Hopefully.... but I'd just as soon leave early for an appointment.

We are obviously interrpreting the original quote two different ways. I see it as saying what most people require, you see it as saying what most people want, so some breeders will step their "programs" down because of this.
Since I am the only one who interrpreted it this way, I will say that I read it wrong.

Do I believe I read it wrong? No, but I'll say it :)

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

What if I want a real Lambo, but I only drive the speed limit?
Why would the car's integrity and performance need changed because I don't race it? I want the option to go fast.... but I don't require it in everyday situations.

A lot of people use this same logic to say, My dog (Lambo) is fantastic and a natural kick ass protector .. yada yada... but until tested legitimately one just does not know.

Will the car perform if I need it to? Hopefully....
I would rather know than hope. To know takes testing and training.
It may never happen, probably won't ever happen, it may happen and I might not be able to get to a gun fast enough if my dog does not have what it takes to intervene with extreme prejudice. Ill take knowing over hope anytime.


but I'd just as soon leave early for an appointment.
That is wise, but there is always the time when something comes up and things do not go as planned. It is also wise to plan for the unexpected.

We are obviously interrpreting the original quote two different ways. I see it as saying what most people require, you see it as saying what most people want, so some breeders will step their "programs" down because of this. Since I am the only one who interrpreted it this way, I will say that I read it wrong.

[b]Most breeders have never stepped their programs up even be able to step them down. How many breeders have culled or neutered individuals out of a litter? Cull them ,, gee I wont make that 800-3000 dollars on them, require and validat that they are neutered and they would be hard to sell. I am saying simply do not breed to the least common denominator just to sell puppies and line pockets. Breed for the best, sell to the best owners.


Do I believe I read it wrong? No, but I'll say it
Just laughs..... :D

[Fred]

[quote="SteelFistVelvetGlove"]

A lot of people use this same logic to say, My dog (Lambo) is fantastic and a natural kick ass protector .. yada yada... but until tested legitimately one just does not know.

True.

I would rather know than hope. To know takes testing and training.
It may never happen, probably won't ever happen, it may happen and I might not be able to get to a gun fast enough if my dog does not have what it takes to intervene with extreme prejudice. Ill take knowing over hope anytime.

Welllll, you could get to a gun fast enough if your dog alerted you fast enough ;) . From there I'm the guy that would just as soon close the dogs in the bedroom and investigate the sound myself (armed of course). Like I said, I am responsible for my dogs, they aren't responsible for me, but I realize some people need more from their animals. Maybe if I lived in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of meth labs around I would need more than a physical deterrant.......

That is wise, but there is always the time when something comes up and things do not go as planned. It is also wise to plan for the unexpected.

........but you can only plan for so much and in this case I feel you would be better off with a dog like your brother descibed, one that reacts without thinking. And that is just a big liability for most people.

Most breeders have never stepped their programs up even be able to step them down. How many breeders have culled or neutered individuals out of a litter? Cull them ,, gee I wont make that 800-3000 dollars on them, require and validat that they are neutered and they would be hard to sell. I am saying simply do not breed to the least common denominator just to sell puppies and line pockets. Breed for the best, sell to the best owners.

Agreed! :ok:

BUT...... :) not all the best owners have the same requirements of their dog.
I bought my dog from proven parents; OFAed, PP trained, confirmed excellent in front of Spanish judge (or whatever was going on at that time in Youngstown), but all I require is a well rounded dog that I like the look of and has "capable" dogs in her immediate background. A dog that hopefully carries the traits of her ancestors. It's all I require. That's all I'm getting at and I'm NOT condoning breeding down or watering down the breed. Nor am I condoning breeding dogs to meet the needs of the sport crowd, but I know this is a testing venue used by many to prove their dogs' worth. There are two ways to change the dogs original purpose.

Of course...... I'm probably the only Presa owner that had their dog's reproductive capabilities removed, too. At a young age. :angel: I don't require that either :D

[eSPO]

Fred , I didn`t mean to say a dog that reacts without thinking when I said
" A dog that goes from idle to redline in two seconds flat and cools off just as fast" . I should have explained that I meant they "tach up" the moment they have identified a threat and if no threat is present they mellow right out. I look at this as one of the standard qualities in a real Presa Canario. Please forgive me for not being more specific.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Welllll, you could get to a gun fast enough if your dog alerted you fast enough . From there I'm the guy that would just as soon close the dogs in the bedroom and investigate the sound myself (armed of course). Like I said, I am responsible for my dogs, they aren't responsible for me, but I realize some people need more from their animals. Maybe if I lived in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of meth labs around I would need more than a physical deterrant.......

Yes, but I am getting old and slower and would probably forget where I "hid" the gun in a safe place.... ~laughs~ or I would be on one side of the house and the "gun" on the other.. actually I dont own a gun, but me and my dog would both be attacking the "intruder" My personal reality is, is that I live in a real safe place and do not even lock my doors, of course given the sound on the other side of t he door, most people are remiss just to enter :D

I dont think it is a matter of "needing more" its a matter of making and keeping the Presa the "more" that it should be, whether I need it or not...

[Fred]

Fred , I didn`t mean to say a dog that reacts without thinking when I said
" A dog that goes from idle to redline in two seconds flat and cools off just as fast" . I should have explained that I meant they "tach up" the moment they have identified a threat and if no threat is present they mellow right out. I look at this as one of the standard qualities in a real Presa Canario. Please forgive me for not being more specific.

I know. This is what I was referring to:
"I mean if I want a super hard, non social, unpredictable dog all I do is get a dog from dogs with excellent temperament , deprive him of socialization in his formative months , work him in defense all the time and chain his ass up the rest of the time."

[Fred]

I dont think it is a matter of "needing more" its a matter of making and keeping the Presa the "more" that it should be, whether I need it or not...

Exactly!!! You should have it there if needed, but how many people will ever need it? Like insurance :D

[surfnplay12]

My anwser to that is don't get it then. If a presa is two much dog for your lifestyle (not directed toward fred :D ) Then don't get one there are alot of other breeds that look scary that are more laid back why not get one of those. Like dennis said its not a matter of wether you need it or not the presa should be a presa and breeders should breed them for that reguardless of what the majority of people want or need we don't want a majority of people owning these dogs anyway if we want them to stay worth anything.

[Fred]

"If a presa is two much dog for your lifestyle"

Interesting remark. Seems to me that unless you're lifestyle leads you to be constantly in danger to where you need the added protection of a trained dog, or you live on a farm that still does things the old fashioned way, or you illegally fight your dog... the Presa, or most modern day dogs in a modern day society don't suit most people's lifestyles.
Including most of the people that post on or moderate this board or any other presa board.

[eSPO]

My lifestyle doesnt put me in danger, life , however, has. Phoenix Arizona is the 4th largest city in the US, the crime statistics are not pretty, I have family and friends that I love. When I read of home invasion robberies, burglaries, assaults and murders , I often wonder how it would have turned out if there were a capable manstopper in the picture. I am not paranoid, but I have been a victim of crime and have witnessed a few. Many people say "but I live in a good neighborhood" Where do you think the thieves go to score good salable merchandise ? to the hood ?
Almost everyday ( in a nice part of town) I read about someones wife at home who is accosted, a kid who is kidnapped, the family that is beaten and robbed, a break in in the middle of the night etc. I sleep well knowing somewhere in the house are two dogs that will warn me and engage if necessary.

[surfnplay12]

I think you took that statement out of context. I was saying that if a presa with a lot of temp or drive is more than you can handel you should never get one. This has nothing to do with if you need the dog or not. What I am saying is if you can handel this kind of dog wether you need it or not is not the issue but some can handel a dog like that some can't. What you do with the dog is not what this conversation is all about. Its about being able to do somthing with the dog if you want to, the presa was never meant to just look scary and do nothing these were functional animals why change that reguardless of what people really need?

[eSPO]

KC ,I agree with you and what you have been saying 100% .I am in the same boat with everybody that wants to maintain and preserve the temperamental and physical attributes of the Perro de Presa Canario.
We cannot control what other people do we can only form alliances with like iminded people and breeders and do what we can to preserve it.

[Fred]

Well like I've been saying, that's exactly how I feel too (in regards to the last three posts above this one). I just can't seem to get across that I did not read watering down the breed into that original quote.
What one requires or wants can be very different from what one actually needs..... thankfully. :)