REAL TALK ABOUT THE PRESA CANARIO IN THE USA AND SPAIN

[presasur]

With this post, we are going to start trying to help many people, who still don´t seem to have a clear idea about the PRESA CANARIO in the USA.We are also going to try to speak clearly and honestly about how we see the PRESA CANARIO in Spain too.
Let´s start by saying we don´t always produce good PRESAS,we produce our share of bad ones too.,our aim here is to try to produce better and better dogs,but it´s a difficult task and we fail many times,buying a dog from any breeder and thinking you are always going to get a hell of a presa is just mambo jumbo,this fact goes for all breeds of dogs.

We clearly understand now, that many DOGOS in the usa are better dogs than many PRESAS.It´s understandable many DOGO people feel the way they feel about PRESA people too.,you cannot defend your arguement just by saying your dog is a presa because of a pedigree.This has a simple explanation: most dogs called PRESAS in the USA have nothing to do with REAL PRESAS either morphologically or in temperament,we always read ridiculous comments about these dogs pedigrees justifying the authenticity of their presas,you cannot have a dog looking like any other breed but a presa in all senses,skinny with no bone and weighing 45 kilos and call it a presa just because it comes from the islands.If we bred one of these dogs we would be the first ones not to call it a PRESA.We also wrote a post a while ago stating that many presas had been imported to the usa and had been called dogos for the sake of perhaps the selling market.
Under the name Presa canario many breeders are breeding TERRIBLY poor specimens,cross bred dogs with a total lack of selection program,we wouldn´t pay 50 us dollars for one of these dogs. In any breeding program you can have specimens which differ greatly from the desired characteristics and standard of the PRESA CANARIO in terms of temp and morphologically.What we feel is an scandal is that these type of dogs are the average dog being produced in the USA and sold as presas right now.
Finding good presa canarios nowadays in Spain, is not that easy, so whoever that thinks that by importing presas from Spain, or going to the islands or Madrid is a guarantee of getting the ideal Presa is just wrong.
Pedigrees mean nothing if they are just used for the sake of selling or the breeder just breeds bad dogs,many puppy pedlers use this to sell their dogs,we all know this.So let´s start using our comom sense and not be so easily led by mambo jumbo stories that have nothing to do with the reality of the breed.It´s a fact you could find better dogs in the past than now.In the past as it had been said by many breeders on many famous articles, legendary breeders talked about the Presa Canario saying it had a UNIQUE TEMP.,it´s what makes them so special.,a PRESA CANARIO according to this must be a pp dog or civil dog,not just a SPORTS DOG, this is THE TRUE PRESA CANARIO like it or not,let´s not try to change it now.LETS ALL TRY TO BREED BETTER PRESAS, IT MUST THE TRUE AND AUTHENTIC GOAL FOR ALL BREEDERS AND LET´S ALSO HAVE A CLEAR IDEA ABOUT THE PRESA CANARIO SO THAT WE CAN ALL GO IN THE SAME DIRECTION,THIS WOULD ONLY BENEFIT THE BREED,AND IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT BUYING A DOG DON´T CONTRIBUTE WITH YOUR IGNORANCE TO THE PROLIFERATION OF THESE TERRIBLY POOR SPECIMENS OF PRESAS AND UNSCRUPULOUS BREEDERS.

[presasur]

WE ALSO BELIEVE SOME BREEDERS ARE DOING BUSINESS OUT THE DOGO PRESA ISSUE,LETS HAVE THIS CLEAR TOO.

[cgpresadog]

Message deleted.

[surfnplay12]

Good post lu and I totally agree. I will take it one step further to me this issue has alot of varablies and is really complex but the simple truth is a dogo is a dogo not only for its apperance and pedigree but mostly for its temp.Can they have temp yes of course and some do but the problem is the majority of them don't and its becasue they haven't been bred to. Now is this any worse than the dogs with presa pedigrees that have no temp absolutly not I find them worse than the dogo's because there like a wolf's in sheeps clothing, having the name,pedigree,looks of presa but lack the very thing that make's this breed special and worth owning THE TEMP. I think there is a difference in the presa and the dogo and always will, but this does by no means excuse the so called presa breeders that are breeding these type's of dogs.I am so sick of the ego stroking and back patting that has been going on in this community. Nobody but a few wants to hurt anybodys feelings or give anybody critisim. This is what hurts the breed the most people let this s**t slide. These are supposed to be ruff dog's and we have disscussion's on hear about the pro's and con's of dog parks :confused: I don't know how dave and paolo put up with it much props to you guys. Untill we not only start weeding out these subpar dogs from the genetic pool but also there owners then we will go no where with this breed because if talking will get it done then were on the right track but if not were screwed. Don't talk about it be about it !

[presas4me]

I'd like to hear from Lou and others what they feel the "correct" temperament is regardless if it is Dogo or Presa? I also think that the dogs in the US are raised VERY different than the dogs in Spain and Canary Islands. I didn't see one dog raised in the house in Canary Islands and we went to MANY MANY places to see dogs; all were either kenneled or on chains.

[presasur]

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THE POLEMIC ISSUE ABOUT THE PRESA AND THE DOGO AND I´M NOT GOING TO ADD ANYTHING NEW TO THIS,AS WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE ITS SOMETHING ALTHOUGH RELATED,NOT QUITE THE SAME.
There are good and bad specimens of both presa and dogo type dogs and it is my belief that a truly good, civil, healthy dogo is by definition, a Presa Canario.


THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG,IN CASE YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND , ITS A VERY ACCURATE APPRECIATION.,AS FOR WHAT CATHY SAYS,ITS TRUE TO A POINT BUT THERE ARE MANY PRESAS LIVING IN HOUSEHOLDS NO PROBLEM,THE PREVIOUS POST WAS WRITTEN BY ME AND GABI FROM IRON BULL,I´LL NOW LET HIM WRITE ABOUT THE CORRECT TEMP AS I BELIEVE HE IS THE RIGHT PERSON TO DO SO BY RIGHT,IF YOU DO NOT MIND.

[jdunson]

I too agree with the comments. It took me a while to actually to even begin breeding because while I had done alot of the research and listened to alot of comments before, i did not want to be lumped in with alot of these fly by night operations. I too would love to hear more about the ideal temp. As a few of you may know after read the article on Mr. Asensio and his line I became very intrigued. Because so much of the emphasis in his program was totally based on temp. and function. It's so easy to say my dog has the best temp. but what does that really mean? I know there is the tests but when you read some articles or interviews with some original breeders like Mr. Asensio or Mr. Curto you get the feeling that there's more that these tests may not even be touching upon.

These are the topics and posts that I really enjoy. Forget all the name calling and back biting and help us come to understand these dogs more. :ok: The info that is shared on here is where we can maybe help some these misguided breeders (here, Poland, Spain, wherever) to start producing better dogs. Great topic presasur!!! ;)

[JSF13]

Sweet! :ok: This could be the beginning of a significant breakthrough as far as the future of our breed is concerned. Nice going guys and gals. :)

[presas4me]

Just don't want this discussion to fall too far below....

any response as to temperament? Also curious where those house dogs are in Spain or Canary Islands?

[presasur]

Iron bull will write the post about the correct temp,.about whether the are presas living in houses in the Canary islands ,there are for sure,even with some old ladies as i can recall, plenty of them too,in mainland spain you find presas in flats most of the time,its quite common.This will never be an issue when we talk about presas,th reasons for many breeders or owners keeping them outside their houses is not because they CANNOT DO IT,this must be made clear,lets not loose our common sense once again please,these dogs are not monsters,a pp or civil dog is not a monster if some of you try to make people think they are,its just ridiculous.Something else is not wanting to own one of these dogs because you prefer a labrador type of presa,as many of these really bad specimens being bred are in the usa are right now,some pp dogs are harder than others,its true,but the breeder must know who to sell to as we have always said.

[presasur]

A PP dog or CIVIL can without a single doubt become a great family dog,something completely different is breeding a sports dog for another market of people who demand a softer type of dog.This might be a more interesting and lucrative market,in this case we wouldnt be selling them a presa canario.Needless to say., either the future owner goes for another breed or the breeder should consider breeding another type of breed,changing the breed for the sake of adjusting to the demand for a softer dog is completey adulterating the breed,this has been happenning far too long,and the results are more than obvious to our eyes and to many people in the USA too.

[jdunson]

Just a question for clarification, when you say "sport" what do you mean? I have begun PSA training with one of mine. i like it because it puts a lot more demandand stress on the dog with more distractions. It's definitely more challenging.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

A PP dog or CIVIL can without a single doubt become a great family dog,something completely different is breeding a sports dog for another market of people who demand a softer type of dog.

Ill have to disagree in general. I started training Elijah in sport, now I am training him PP and then will do sport. He has always been a confident dog, but not a civil dog. The PP training has significantly amplified his aggression. I will do sport with him. The philosophy of my trainer is that if a dog is trained well in PP the bite work in sport is easy. I have not put much control (obedience) on Elijah since I have been training him PP, but he has the foundation. His outs, like other PP dogs that do sport may not be as clean etc. I believe it is very possible to train a naturally civil dog, PP and have him/her compete decently in sport. Its a matter of the right training early on.

[surfnplay12]

Dennis lu is not saying that these civil PP dogs cannot compete in sport. They just do so with a different mentallity there not equipment dependent. However I strickly sport dog is not going to be your ideal PP dog and some sport dogs just don't have it in them. I think thats the point Lu is trying to make correct me if I'm wrong Lu.

[presasur]

Jasun many sports dog are absuletely bad, not to say terrible when it comes to pp,absolutely useless.Dont let others foul you.Why ?because they havent got it in them,its simple.Now.,can a pp dog do sport? yes they can but they just dont like it,and with some of them is really hard to do it because they want to bite the man,,we wont repeat this as we have said it many a times.The ideal thing is having a pp dog and then although with difficulty trying to do sport.Mondioring is the ideal venue to start working pp dogs,take from us as this is what we are doing.

[presas4me]

I have not seen alot of upper level Mondio but I do see LOTS of distractions...I thought it was similar to PSA; except PSA has lots of pressure; yelling at the dog, coming straight towards the dog, bending over the dog, etc.

I personally like the dog to be my companion first, personal protection dog second, and "sport" dog third.....I see the "sport" as an extension of their protection ability....a test to see what the dog will do under pressure and different scenarios. If you don't test how can you truly know what the dog will do? Barking aggressively and snarling on their property or in a kennel doesn't show the nerves of the dog IMO.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Jasun many sports dog are absuletely bad,

Agreed.

Not all PP dogs dislike sport. The fact that they want to feel the man, makes them grip much better on the suit.

Good training produces a good "switch" Companion dog one minute, protector or on the grip, whether it be PP or sport, the next. imhoim

[presasur]

nothing to add to your comments Cathy,mondio is not the ideal thing either, its just better for us here than rci, to get some necessary training for the dog, before the dog they are started on civil or pp work which is the final goal.

[presasur]

it would be really interesting to watch videos of pure pp dogs in the usa.This way we would all have a clear idea of what you think a pp dog is.

[presas4me]

Are you saying from a trial; in a backyard, in training??? I think very few dogs are tested so this would be very limited. I don't consider a dog biting a sleeve a test of personal protection; nor a dog on a leash although that is start. I like to see the scenarios where the dog is sitting next to you and someone attacks you or send the dog on one person and someone attacks you and the dog must come back immediately. The Red Star Surprise Scenarios were probably the best ones I have seen to actually test the dogs under MANY different situations; here is a description and I'll try to access the videos:
http://www.red-star-kennel.com/default-frames.htm

Well, it is not working but if you click on Presa Canario page and go down about 1/2 way you will see Surprise Scenario which tells about the scenarios. Also video gallery has videos to see some of the scenarios. Hopefully this will be allowed to stay as it has some good footage on testing dogs.......

[presasur]

Sometimes we wonder whether many of you will ever accept the true presa canario as it is,whether you really like the presa as it is,or whether many of you have just been wrongly guided by either: many bad dogs exported and imported to the usa,a good opportunity to make a buck with a new breed,some breeders who didnt have a clue and still dont about the breed,the spreading of a new product of the presa canario-a really bad one-the unfinished dispute and confussion between the dogo and the presa of which some as we have said have taken advantage,as there people still out there trying to create even more confussion so they can make their dogs good to the eyes of the public.
We will be posting videos shortly of pp dogs at work,this ways we will ratify what we are saying,and if anyone think we are also trying to sell our dogs,they are wrong,we are just trying to help honest people out there trying to buy or get good presas -good dogs-and have finished getting anything but a presa,and on top of that have paid a fortune for the dog,its just crazy.Still we are hopefull this tendency may change one day.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

The final proof of the pudding is if a dog will actually do a live bite under pressure or under NO pressure. All the barking and snarling theatrics may not mean a thing and usually does not when display confronts a real situation. I am told that a hidden sleeve for "proving" is only really good once.

The PP training I am doing with Elijah is including real life environmental. Sends into a garage, soon house searchs, jumping over barriers, going under barriers.. doing what has to be done to get to the bite. This includes excersises that are raising his aggression significantly. The "defensive" training we were instructed to do was not panning out, it would work intermittently, what we have went to is producing very consistant results. I am fortunate to be hooked with with a very good PP trainer, looking forward to continuing this type of training and seeing how it effects our PSA efforts next year. Time will tell.

[presasur]

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's.,we haven´t seen anyone in the usa so far work their dogs better than red star,why not say it?we all migh have our opinions about their dogs etcc,but they should get credit where credit is due,we wont start the dogo presa dispute again,we will put this aside.We have all watched those videos havent we?One good question we can ask is:how many of those and other dogs you see doing sports could be left alone by themselves without you feeling that if an stranger came he would take the dog with him without much effort? we would also try to record someone trying to give food to young pups,a word which many preseros used for their dogs in the past was insobornable when they refered to their dogs.,this means you cannot corrupt a dog accepting food from stranger,all these are attributes pp dogs have,of course not all,but many and it was an idea many preseros had in the past when they bred their dogs.

[eSPO]

The thing that set Redstar apart was they were professional dog trainers breeding and training the dogs. I have always maintained that a good dog, a good handler and a good trainer would equal success for many "Presas". the problem is so few people are able or willing to put all three together. A good handler can read a dog as well as his trainer, knows instinctively when to firm up or slacken up his handle on the dog, praises his dog and corrects the dog with proper timing and level. A god trainer understands each individual dogs temperament, defensive and offensive threshholds and motivations. A good trainer is a teacher and coach, a good trainer tells of the "why?" behind the "how ?". A good dog has the natural nerve and courage and has enough of both drives that get him to the fight and keep him in it. My frustration about so many people labeling the Presa Canario as an "OK" protection dog is based on my belief that not enough people have seen real presas that have had this opportunity .A perfect example is JN and Django. An experienced decoy /good handler, training with a world class trainer and an excellent dog. This should equal success . There are many more Presas than you know in the US that can compete and do very well at personal protection, its just that so few get the opportunity to enjoy the benefit of good training and handling. The more Presas that get out there, the more peolple will take them serious and the breed will attract more people who are willing to put out the time and effort, money and training necessary to succeed. A stranger should never be able to come into a home or on to a property inhabited by a Presa without leaving in a huge hurry of losing a little butt cheek.

[presasur]

we meant if you left your dog in a park,or in the street,not at home,its what me meant as we all know even poodles can guard their home,it has been said before.

[eSPO]

Ok , now I understand. That would be interesting.

[presasur]

Gabi de Iron bull asks how many of your dogs have a guard instinct?.,he says that you can have a civil dog to to sports but not the other way round,as a civil dog has to be born a civil dog,its impossible to make a dog to be a civil dog.He says a good civil dog will always try to let go of the sleeve and try to bite the man.They are not passive at all and will get into the fight to shake and go for the man.they are not passive as many we see on the videos,Male presas wont tolerate other male dogs around.Red star work is just impecable,really good but they could do with better dogs.And after all this he says that a dog wants to please its master and a real presa will always try to please his master and this is common sense.

[presasur]

if your dog dosent have any malice,guard instinct,natural mistrust and is not dominant ,no matter whether if he has just carried out the most amazing sports peformance,if they are left alone,anyone could take the dog.With mollosers is not that easy to get that.,filas or caucassian even if they were dead scared wouldnt allow anyone to touch them.With other mollosers without the confidence and support of their master will fail most times.

[eSPO]

filas or caucasian even if they were dead scared wouldn't allow anyone to touch them

They are always dead scared that's why they snap and bite. They seldom go any further with a man. When it comes to manwork its 90% display and 10% bite with them . You will never see a Fila or Caucasus doing man work like a Shepherd or Malinois. Cop shops ( Law enforcement) wont ever use them. With their display they are a good deterrent that's about it.

[surfnplay12]

I am not sure about fila's but I have heard of some caucasins that would kill you literally. A civil dog is a civil dog thats it, doesn't mean that they are scared or unbalanced or even unstable. They just have a different mind set than a dog that just does well at sport but has no seriousness to it .Its just all a game and they know it . I think the point is that its the mentality of the dog that determines this and thats genetic in my opinion.
I have had this argument before I have felt that there has been some in this breed that have tried to adapt this breed for the modern lifestyle. And historically this breed (at least the good ones )were serious dogs that lived hard lives they were loyal to there owners but fierce with strangers. So why change this if this doesn't fit your lifestyle than get another breed don't ruin this one. This is what has happend to all the great breeds they have become Quote on Quote family compaions, basicly they breed the balls out of them how sad.

[presasur]

A PRESA HAVING THE SAME MISTRUST INSTINCT AS CAUCASSIANS ARE INFINITELY MORE CONFIDENT THAN CAUCASSIANS,AND COULD DO SPORTS PEFECTLY,JUST LIKE VOLCAN DE ATLAS ASIO,YOU CAN CHANNEL A CIVIL DOG NATURAL INSCTINCT TO DO SPORT BUT NOT HE OTHER WAY AROUND.A SPORT DOG ONLY WILL NEVER BE A NATURAL GUARD DOG.WE WILL RECORD ALI AND MANDRA FOR YOU TO SEE.,YOU JUST CANNOT TEACH THIS.

[presasur]

Rusticity.,natural guard instinct,aloof and weary with strangers,combativity
hardeness.,natural mistrust,dominance,if your dog dosent have this,apart form other qualities presas have,call it another name but do not call it presa canario.We have a bulldog than can do sport better than many presas,why?because we work him,nothing to do with his instinct,he just loves it.

[eSPO]

Rusticity.,natural guard instinct,aloof and weary with strangers,combativity,hardeness.,natural mistrust,dominance,if your dog dosent have this,apart form other qualities presas have,call it another name but do not call it presa canario.

I would agree 100% with this description when describing a male Presa Canario and would only remove the word "dominance" when describig a female. My experience with females tells me they are more submissive to the owner and family. What the dog is on the inside and what the dog is on he outside are often two different things. The same dog raised two different ways will behave two different ways. My goal is to have dogs that fit this description that are habituated and trained enough where their normal behavior is not aggressive unless they see a genuine threat. At the same time I , don`t want them to view everything as a threat. I want a well socialized , reasonably obedient dog that knows what to do whan the time is right. I don`t want an edgy dog, I want a dog with edge.

[effa]

Dominance for me doesnt go witch genader. A home Pari is more dominant. I have more control over her than Kingo but witch dogs she has the last word (till the time when Kingo is piced off - he is trronger so sometimes he get a kick).

A natural guard instinckt is something special in this breed.I don't think you can learn your dog to do this. It just have it or not.

[effa]

we meant if you left your dog in a park,or in the street,not at home,its what me meant as we all know even poodles can guard their home,it has been said before.

This I could show you ;)

The problem is that people think that good quality presa (the described one) will be to hard to handle and would be to agresive. With is not true. Yes it's not that easy to train this dogs but they are not killing machines.

and to find a good unit... it's very, very hard. Witch honest I can say that I will prey for a dog like Kingo in the future. And I'm not shure if I will ever have anything like him.

What I would be looking for woul be defence instinct - the one that lets your dog walk in the town not bing dengerous to people but makeing atack anybody tht would try to hurt you withut second.

Guard - that's easy to say harder to get. A good guardian is that one that wan't let any stranger enter his place. No matter if this i his car, house or place where it is tied and waits for you.

[presasur]

a good presa must be able to differnetiate all types of situations,its not a crazy dog.,a good presa will always protect the family even if there is no agression.,once he is out of that enviroment he should only show aggression on his masters comand.,he should show balance,and if required he can change from 0 to a 100 in no time,its his great virtue and quality,to be able to deal with extreme situations.the result is the Best MOLLOSER in the world.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I would have these observations on Red Star. How many years? How many litters?, How many puppies vs the percentage of dogs that have titled sport. In addition as presasur has accurately pointed out, sport is not the same as PP.

A fila will kill and intruder, we have seen Presa's kill their own owners,
it is not a matter of whether a dog can and will kill, it is a matter can the dog be trained to only attack when there is a real threat or on command? A presa should have a natural propensity to do this, but that does not eliminate the need for responsiblity for protection training and obedience.

I would never let my dogs loose in a park. Even a stable dog can meet up with someone he/she simply does not like, not to mention causing some people in the bark unreasonable anxiety or fear, add to that the occassional other breed dominant dog that may be loose. just not a good idea.

[JSF13]

.

I would never let my dogs loose in a park. Even a stable dog can meet up with someone he/she simply does not like, not to mention causing some people in the bark unreasonable anxiety or fear, add to that the occassional other breed dominant dog that may be loose. just not a good idea.


Couldn't agree more! Sooner or later it is going to catch up with you.

[presasur]

who is going to let a male presa loose in the park,for christ sake people.,you must be crazy to think that way.We were only saying if you left the dog tied up on a leash to a bench.,a lamp post whatever,but never loose,do you think we are so stupid?We can´t belive it.,we will write a manual soon on how to handel presas,like with cameras and other items.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

We were only saying if you left the dog tied up on a leash to a bench.,a lamp post whatever,

Still not a good idea here, Lu. It is against the law to tie out a dog on public property in most places. One still also has the potential problem of other dogs off-leash in a park or public place. Elijah is very friendly with people, with 99 percent them he has had no problems and I have no problem taking him out in public, even in crowded venues, but there have been 2 people he fired on that he did not like immediately, he was on leash so I was able to control him so there was no problems. Tieing a dog out and not having immediate control can be risky, wrong person goes to pet him, wrong dog that has a brain dead owner that lets his dog run around of leash,, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Here there are also people that look and actually try to create situations to sue other people in court, they would actually try to pet a dog that is tied out hoping it would bite them so they can sue, they are crazy.

[eSPO]

I think this was an "if you did" scenario. Not saying to actually do it.
In other words it wasn`t a literal suggestion. I can`t think of the term I`m looking for right now, must be oldtimers creepin` in. Someone, hep me !

[slamm]

For the love of God, Dennis,

Presaur, was speaking figuratively, not literally. He was not literally suggesting we take our presas and turn them loose on the public for the purpose of testing these theories.

LOL,

Sam

[Dogdefender]

All remember me to dogo people..pet people, expo people..sweet dogs....

[jdunson]

I am not sure if I completely follow some of the thinking here. I lean toward psa because of the stress it puts on the dogs. More scenario, more real life situations. This is taking nothing away from pp but I have seen both displayed and the amount of distractions that I have seen some dogs go through is unreal. Maybe I have just a good trainer. Is there anything wrong with running a dog through multiple scenarios so as to be able to not only predict but also bolster the dogs confidence to deal with these extreme cases. Would that not help?

Please understand that I am trying to learn more about this temperment and what works to bring out the best in these dogs.

[surfnplay12]

Sam I'm glad you handeld that because I'm afraid I would have been a bit more harsh my god :confused: I read through these post I don't think most people are getting what is being said here.Nobody is arguing aginist the benefits of sports this disscusion is not even really about the sports and there benefits its about the difference in the dogs that compete in them and the ones that are civil. The difference in these two types of dogs is there mind set both can be performing the same task but the mind set of the dogs can be totally different one can think that this is just simply a game and can be equipment fixated the other one could care less about the equipment but wants the man behind the sleeve. There are dogs that look great but you could give them a bite and then slip the sleeve then walk right up and punch the handler in the face and the dog wouldn't even notice because the dog is two busy playing with its new toy. What Lu is saying is this is not the right temp for this breed and it is genetic in these dogs or should be.

[jdunson]

Actually, I did understand that was the point Lou was making. I guess since he brought up psa training vs pp training and how it somehow was creating a conflict in the dogs and what they were originally breed for, I became concerned. I do not want to do anything counter-productive with my dogs. That is the clarification that I was looking for. If I should steer away from psa work i want more info than just personal preference. If I took Lou's comments out of context and read too much into them, I'm sorry, was not my desire.

[surfnplay12]

NO I personally don't see anything wrong with psa training I really like that type of sport. What I was clarifing is that it is not the training we are talking about but the dogs and the difference in them. There is nothing you can do to give your dog this its either in them or its not. You can train to help but they will never be the same as a dog that just has it in my opinion.

[effa]

NO I personally don't see anything wrong with psa training I really like that type of sport. What I was clarifing is that it is not the training we are talking about but the dogs and the difference in them. There is nothing you can do to give your dog this its either in them or its not. You can train to help but they will never be the same as a dog that just has it in my opinion.

I agree

[presasur]

Effa got it right the other day,as she has that type of dog most probably.and she is also right when she says they are hard to get,all this would be easier if we could see these dogs in person and see the difference by ourselves.To breed pp dogs you must have the breeding stock,if you dont you might never breed one,its as simple as that.We remember Marcosdad telling us about his bitch saying she was completely different to all the other dogs he had ever owned in the past and in his words that she was a REAL PRESA..

[presasur]

At the end of it all MONEY will have the last say on all this,as usual.Money Money Money. :D.history repeats itself its what Thucydides said.

[presasur]

A True presa canario should be a PP dog.,Psa is ok for a pp dog,minding you realize the dog you have and do not just stay only doing PSa.To have a pp dog it must be born a pp dog.Many Psa dogs are not pp dogs but they excell in Psa.PP dogs can be good at both psa and pp although its harder to to get them used to do psa work,this happened with volcán de Atlas asio,and is still happening with many dogs here trying to do psa,they always come to us explaining how difficult it is for them to do psa.,its a common thing here,this is just because they are pp dogs,,its the only reason. You must realize that while you have many sports orientated presas in the usa we have a completely different dog here,when you talk about your presas and we talk about ours,or even young kids talk about their dogs here,we are talking about different breeds with the same name,here we try to breed pp dogs,when we breed a dog that is only a sports dog we do not call it a presa,as they are not presas for us.,To work pp dogs is fantastic and we recomend it.There are bad and good trainers,a bad trainer who dosent know the breed can easily ruin your dog,a good one can improve any breed.We will continue breeding pp dogs,True presas canarios.,the same way they were bred in the past,previous to the International interest for the breed and its recognition,and previous to any shows and monograficas.If we a good an unbiased look at what has hapenned to the breed in the last 50 years or more,we can easily see that regardless what many people have to say,generally speaking,presas of today are not better than in the past.,this dosent mean some breeders may have even better dogs than in the past as we have always said,as Asensio de Atlas Asio,to us the best ever breeder of Presas,used to say.,the old preseros would love his presas.

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I think this was an "if you did" scenario. Not saying to actually do it

and my response consists of the possiblities if what could happen "if you did".

Sam, how do you figuratively tie a dog out?

People that do not have knowledge and are new to dominant dogs and the breed, could read this do exactly that, not trying to test anything, simply going to a park and tieing a dog out. I do not care to enforce that idea of doing that without expressing the down side.

[presasur]

Some of you and some of us might have less or more money,have a presa or not.,but if what gathers us all here is not a genuine love,passion,interest and respect for this breed,then this is a farse,and the True Presa Canario will never benefit from this.Years will go by and we will all be back to square one,(AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN),with just a few honest and dedicated breeders around.Money is necessary to keep these large animals but it should never be the final aim as it will corrupt the real qualities and virtues of this breed FOR SURE AND FOR GOOD.

[surfnplay12]

Amen? Untill people get the dollar signs out of there eyes this breed will not improve on a wide scale.

[kaner6]

I am not sure that I am getting all that is being said here.

We can talk about sport and we can talk about personal protection and we can talk about dogs that do them both.

I don't think its justifiable to say you can get PP dogs to do sport work. Some never will. To say it is possible for a PP dog to get an IPO3 I find very hard to believe. Any dog that can compete at that level has to have an incredible level of prey drive. When we talk PP we talk about civil and defense.

The same goes for sports dogs. For example...the weaker dogs can do routines because they train for them. If they are confronted with a situation which requires them not to look at a person as a prey item they fold. BUT the dog still needs a high level of prey to carry the dog through.

The dogs that can do both need to have balance. My personal preference would be a dog that can do everything. We will see what happens with my dog right now but in talking about my "perfect" dog I want to see a high level of prey. I want a dog that when it sees something it not just barks for it, it screams for it. I want a dog with defense...when it sees a threat it puts the dog into drive. Not just barking and posturing, I want a dog that is going to take pressure and use taht to push the dog through the situation.


My question to everyone is what do we consider the Presa Canario's true function? Historically werent they a versatile dog? I know they were used for fighting....fighting needs prey drive. If your dog doesnt have the prey its never going to last. They were used as guardians too which requires that civil "edginess". So isnt the "true" presa canario one taht has it all? Both prey and defense in a single package? If it is then there is no reason why they shouldn't be a good sport dog. They would have the prey to do the scenario's and have nice obedience and the defense would balance them out for courage tests and more direct manwork (driving, stick hits, etc...).

Looking forward to some responses....I like this thread :)

Justin

[surfnplay12]

I agree justin and I think that is what lu is saying that you need a dog that doesn't just have uber prey they also have to have a civil temp as well. You see people that are only concernd with prey when that is only one aspect of this dogs temp or at least should be.

[presasur]

we alreday talked about this with justin a while ago,i do not know if he does remember , this whole subject started with a comment he made,we then started saying the true presa canario wasnt a sports dog, something we still maintain,this way we tried to separate the dogs been bred in the usa which excelled in sports but were not good at all at civil.,since then we have written the same thing over and over again,some may have followed the guist of these threads and some obviously havent,like justin.So much has been said about this,so many convoluted and intricate ways of mixing concepts etcc.and no matter how difficult you try to depict the issue is not that difficult,but im sure this will go on for ever as we fail at explaining this properly i guess.We always do.
Justin says its not justifiable to say pp dogs can do sports dog,we must know what do you understand by this comment of yours?that it cannot be justified?that we do not have enough grounds to justify they can? that we havent got proof that they can do it?.Gabi the poor man has talked about this time and time again to no avail,we can see.,he has said some find it extremelly difficult to do it,,it has been posted before,and he has said some cannot do it at all,it has also been posted.,can some of them do sports yes they can,i gather this is the type of dog justin likes,the one that can,the one that is just not that civil.,because according to him If we read him right,these pp dogs do not have prey drive,or perhaps he is saying they do not have enough,as to be a complete presa you must have a good prey drive.Before we continue,we wouldnt like this topic to be inverted for the sake of confussion,we will say time and time again that tons of dogs have been bred in the usa that are sports dogs,and just that,and that is not a presa canario.,by the same token and if we go by what justin is saying,our civil presas are not true presas either as they are not complete like in the past we should learn from the usa sports dogs with so much prey drive i guess ,,ours do not have suffcient prey drive,its what he is saying if we are reading him well-more confussion to the subject-:-).Do you find hard to believe that volcán the atlas asio got an ipo3?i will let gabi answer you.,If we follow your line of though we can conclude he wasnt a pp dog,he was more of a sports dog as sports dogs according to you are more suitable for this type of work as according to you have more prey drive than pp dogs, i have personally seen amazing pp dogs out of lia that are dogs with the most prey drive dogs i have seen,its why i find your comment short of amazing.Nevertheless I will invite gabi to talk about volcán as he met the dog many a times, and has been in close contact with many sons and daughters out of this dog,some of his offspring are nowadays been bred.,and i will let him also talk about the prey drive in pp dogs as the reason for not being good sports dogs.Historically the true presa canario wasnt a fighting dog,that came later. Trying now to give an image of a pp dog not being balanced is quite risky and trully unjustified in this case,some of them might not be,but as few as other unbalanced dogs in other breeds are.,Anyway,you people are more than welcome to add more confussion to this subject.Its fantastic,this will go on in circles in again.

[eSPO]

the dogs that can do both need to have balance. My personal preference would be a dog that can do everything. We will see what happens with my dog right now but in talking about my "perfect" dog I want to see a high level of prey. I want a dog that when it sees something it not just barks for it, it screams for it. I want a dog with defense...when it sees a threat it puts the dog into drive. Not just barking and posturing, I want a dog that is going to take pressure and use taht to push the dog through the situation.

Can we agree on this ?

[presasur]

alicates will never bark or snarl at you,although some pups do,most of the civil dogs ot civil presas we are used to when they are adults do not behave the way you describe your pp dogs at all.they are quite silent,most of them are.

[kaner6]

First off, I don't like to be grouped with other people so if you want to address me, address me not "you people".

This is exactly why I said you cannot put it in the context of personal protection and sport dogs. That is not how you evaluate a dog. I am sorry if you don't feel that way but you can't just evaluate a dog by saying "oh that is a personal protection dog" or "oh that is a sport dog".

You need to evaluate a dog on drives. Maybe something was lost in translation but I don't appreciate the tone of your post. I have been respectful and I expect the same from you.

When evaluating a dog you evaluate their drives and what you want. What I meant about Volcan is not that I couldn't believe that he got an IPO3. I meant that you can't take a dog that is a personal protection dog in the purest form and turn it into a sport dog. The dog must have the types of drive necessary to compete in sport.

Just like you say you can't take a non-civil dog and make it civil, the same applies for prey. You can't take a dog without prey and make it prey driven.

Again, using Volcan as an example. I am not saying that he couldn't be a good personal protection dog. What I am saying is that he must have been a good sport dog too.

It doesn't matter when fighting came into the picture. I used that as an example because it takes a lot of prey drive to be a good fighting dog. That is my point.

To make this thread more coherent, we need to focus on drives and not the work they do.

Also, you have no clue what kind of dog I like so if you want to call me out like that there is a PM function you can use.

But to clarify what I want in a dog: Strong prey drive. Stronger defense and civil. A dog that can excel in the avenue of personal protection and sport work.

Justin

[presasur]

Kaner,sorry if you felt ofended it wasnt our intention.,we are just a bit tired of this subject,as we have talked about it time and time again.you say we cannot put i a context a pp and sports dog.,well we do, and it s all been for a reason,and many here know,but i wont explain again,but we can,obviously its not what you like to read,but the purpose has always been this and other ones.Why cannot we evaluate a pp and a sport dog?depends on the criteria we use,you certainly have yours we have ours,we allways make a point our dogs are pp dogs.volcan was always a pp dog in the purest of forms., with prey drive like many are ,its quite compatible.Sorry justin but im reading your previous post again in a calm way and i just feel the same.,I DO NOT THINk ITS JUSTIFIABLE TO SAY A PP CAN DO SPORTS WORK..,what do you want us to say?we have been saying they can all along-that they can.

To say it is possible for a PP dog to get an IPO3 I find very hard to believe. Any dog that can compete at that level has to have an incredible level of prey drive. When we talk PP we talk about civil and defense.

well the only presa which got an ipo3 was volcan,and i believe if my english dosent fail me, that he was a pure pp dog,and according to what you say,as we have said on our post,,if we read you well...if he has an incredible prey drive he cannot be a pp dog,am i wrong?perhaps the whole confussion lies in that we call a pp a civil dog..if not, we dont understand whta you are saying.it seems prey drive is an exclussive attribute of sports dog.now you say that ,,,,,,,,,, I meant that you can't take a dog that is a personal protection dog in the purest form and turn it into a sport dog. The dog must have the types of drive necessary to compete in sport. Perhaps i do not understand you justin but why shouldnt have the necessary drive?is it something that must be worked?dont they come with it?i do not undertand it justin,and i think we have a fair amount of reason to question your assertions.
Gabi now tells me Miguel had the fight of his life to get volcan to work,adn that to this date he is still a civil dog,if you touch him or look at him in a bad way he will bite you.

wen we talk we must realize that we are always at risk of making mistakes.,that we are limited as we do not know it all,and that we do the best we can to make oursleves understood,,this is not adressed to you,just in case.its about us.

[presasur]

Just like you say you can't take a non-civil dog and make it civil, the same applies for prey. You can't take a dog without prey and make it prey driven.

who says pp dogs do not have drive? i dont get it justin.-

We can ceratainly evaluate a sport s dog which has tons of prey drive and is not good for pp,its more than obvious to us.the same way we can evaluate a civil dog.

perhaps something scapes us..

[presasur]

perhaps is the pejorative distinction about sports,that you do not like,i think is that,,sports are good we have always said,but not only sports as we have always said,but anyway we have said this all the way,we were just trying to make people understand that many people in the usa were breeding just sports dog,which is OK., BUT ITS NOT A PRESA CANARIO, you can do sports with a civil presa canario and then you have a pp presa canario doing sports.

[effa]

I think this subject gives so much controversy because if you don't do sports how can you prove (without any titles) that you have a good quality dog. For me sports are good. I really enjoy watching videos and photos from protection work and others. It's great that people do this. But the thing is that this titles sometimes lye because the dog behaves in this way not becuse it's his instinct but because it was trained to do so. We know - more or less - what a good dog is. But how to prove that you have an inteligent animal, that it is a perfect guardian, that it would defend you without a doubt, that is at the same time perfect family pet that would do anything for you. Without coming to my home you will never know if my dogs has it or no. You can belive my words but at the same time how can you know if I'm not lying? And sprts gives the proof that maybe this words are true. I personaly don't train my dogs for sports - I don't have a good trainer and nobody in my area wants to be bitten by Kingo. Thats why when I had oportunity I tested him. I think that maybe this kind of test shows something. Because the dog is raw. Never learned to bite properly and to behave in certain way. This shows his potential and how he is changeing on your eyes. I think that it'll never be easy to show that this dog has it. Not if you don't see him in person. Also you will never explain to people what you have on mind not showing it to them. It i only honesty of breeders - the oe that says them to breed good dogs.

[presasur]

Antigua en su forma natural es geneticamente es una perra civil pura ,agresiva y muy defensiva,y equilibrada ,siendo su primera clase se ve claramente estas cualidades ,pues esa perra si queremos trabajarla en deportivo ,tendremos que trabajarla en presa y evitar que entre en defensa como es la forma natural de la perrra,con trabajo la perra será buenísima en cualquier disciplina deportiva que queramos ,pero siempre mantendrá su defensa civil inmpresa ,eso es lo que jamás se puede conseguir al contrario ,un perro exclusivamente presero jamás puede ser civil defensivo puro,se le podrá trabajar por defensa pero jamás será un perro fuerte de caracter y estará siempre acondicionado a una manga o traje ,siendo muy dificil que resuelva . Situaciones reales de agresión o simplemente morder a la orden a un sujeto pasivo.Para qué nos vale tener perros que trabajen si se les ha eliminado sus actitudes como raza ,lo que es el presa en esencia ,el boxer trabaja en pruebas deportivas y jamás será un perro civil ,pues me niego a que el presa sea como un boxer, eso no será jamás un presa.
Las primeras clases de volcán se las dio Asensio,y empezó con civil,empezó a trabajar en defensa y luego Miguel,su dueño lo empezó a trabajar en deportivo.
IRON BULL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5rm1TIq_qY

[presasur]

WITH WORK YOU GAN GET A DOG TO BITE AND TO WORK,BUT,THIS CAN NEVER BE ASSOCIATED TO GUARD AND DEFENSE AND CHARACTER,THIS BITCH WITH WORK SHE CAN DO SPORTS QUITE WELL BUT IF YOU THINK THIS IS ENOUGH FOR PRESAS YOU HAVE GOT IT ALL WRONG.
THE TRANSLATION WILL COME LATER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0brLNpbD_ns

[eSPO]

I do not want to take part in a conversation where I feel that everybody agrees on what is being said but due to different terminology and definitions they appear to disagree. Saying that I am very impressed with this pup and I hope we can continue to see her progress.

[Chi-Towns Finest]

this was an awsome post to read. I was doing some research and came across this, if anyone hasn't had the chance to read over it there is alot of good info in here....... :ok:

[presasur]

The funny thing about all this-,i have learnt a lot on this subject ever since we talked about this post-,is that jose el rubio says a PRESA CANARIO is also a fighting presa with drive even if he dosen´t bite or guard,I hope all of you can make you own conclussions.,there are some very important ones to be made specially when it comes to breeding.I´m giving away valuable info for whoever interested.What i have also learnt is Never again to give in to using a bad tone against anyone.
I enjoyed slamm posts about the presa subject,It´s just amazing the patience many of you have here, sometimes the subject is not about dogs,I´m a amazed about the literature,to call it something, some of the subjects produce:-). As we say here,this all goes in circles,and when you least expect it,the subject will be raised again.I understand different owners see their dogs differently,no matter whether they have a presa canario or not,perhaps they have a presa canario pedigree and feel entitled to voice their feelings and opinions here,others certainly own a presa and like many people now in Spain see the dog as a pet,it happens and some people see nothing wrong in this but others do,this will always happen anyway.It also seems that as soon as these subjects are raised directly or inderectly two teams appear.,the hardliners and perhaps the softer version of the presa and arguements and insults go back and forth.Anyway,If anyone thinks that by crossing different breed of dogs they will come up with a presa canario,I´m sorry to say it wont be as easy as that.,talking to jose el rubio the other day he confirmed something i already knew,for many years some Dutch guys had been buying really great dogs from then,but they always went back to the Islands for more as they can never produce the dogs they buy,this is usually the case,it´s why i really disliked some pejorative comments made about culture and the presa canario,showing no respect at all for MANY things,someone made here.The PRESA CANARIO has been deeply embedded in the culture of the Canarians,whoever who laughs at that will never be welcome among the gentle people of the canary islands.To end up with a happy tone I´ll say that the club is going ahead and that it will soon be a reality.

[Chi-Towns Finest]

Thanks LU for the post......

[dogger]

Some pages back, Dave used me & django as a positive example. I appreciate the props, but want to clarify a few things. Django is my first working dog, I'm learning as I go and making enormous mistakes, just like anyone; I've done most of the training on my own, although Irina has been generous when I've asked for advice/help, and I've taken the time/$$ to go to Ivan B and Mike E, as well as watching/listening to lots of others as they work their dogs; I've worked largely with a small, 40-yo Sch helper who gets abused by django. Mostly, I've listened and paid attention to what others do--and put in a lot of time w/the boy.

Also ironic is that I started decoying because Alex & Irina were looking for someone to help prepare their dogs for PSA. They went to PSA after dominating (alone among presas, ABs, filas, cane corsos, boerbols) the so-called "real protection" or personal protection events. Alex felt PSA was the best & hardest entry level breed test--most legitimate way to prove the dogs could do the 'sporty' work AND take the pressure. The number of dogs Red Star and its pet owners had that competed successfully in PP events was quite high--Irondog, K9PS, etc. The numbers dropped when Alex began to focus on PSA: for some this was a time/money issue for the owners, others found that switching their dogs from PP to PSA was difficult, in terms of control, distractions, etc. Given how few of us have actually TRIED PSA, I find the casual use and dismissal of PSA as a benchmark to be ill-informed. There have been maybe FOUR dogs to complete the PSA-3 program; to say that we should use that for presa breeding standard isn't even a joke.

I must say that most of these discussions exist in the vacuum of the internet. The notion that control and OB ill-effects a dog (ultimately) is ludicrous.

Also, the PP work w/child attached is just poor thinking. Justin, MR has NEVER used a child as an object guard. Go to chicagoland to see the response to that video, for a different view of this putative stability example.

Good luck with your dogs, all.
JN

[slamm]

I find the casual use and dismissal of PSA as a benchmark to be ill-informed. There have been maybe FOUR dogs to complete the PSA-3 program; to say that we should use that for presa breeding standard isn't even a joke.

Dogger, I wanted to be firm in my understanding of what you are saying here.

Do you think that PSA-1 is or could be a good breed standard test or not?

Are you saying that only 4 dogs of any breed have passed the PSA-3?

The notion that control and OB ill-effects a dog (ultimately) is ludicrous.

Are you saying here that proper training does not effect a dog in a bad way? If you are then I agree with you, after watching a good trainer and their methods, I don't see how proper training "ill-effects a dog".

If you are not saying this, please explain,

Sam

[dogger]

Sam, I find myself generally in agreement with your approach/philosophy or what-have-you these days. You seem to have a good grasp of what constitutes a good raw dog, what is good training, etc. And, from all accounts, your 'farm' dogs are quite good, and only want more-structured training.

I do think the PSA-1 is a better breed-suitability test than, say, a Sch-1, just because there's so much variance in the Sch club trials, helper work, etc. BUT: any of these are an achievement for this breed.

Yes, there have been maybe four dogs that have actually titled to PSA-3 (Jerry Bradshaw's Ricardo, Lamont's Porter--who also titled with OJ Knighten--Jerry had another one, and...? Not sure, perhaps Joe Morris?), so I feel pretty comfortable saying people are on crack when they bat around PSA-3 & Presa in the same breath.

I don't want to step on toes, but to me it rings of rank amateurism to claim to putting OB on a dog impedes his abilities. I've seen several 'good' mals who failed to earn the titles they 'deserve' because they were too jacked to pass OB time and again. Honestly, that's a training issue. No control, no passing score.
On the street: no control: live bites on strangers, bad press, hurt/dead people, dead/banned dogs.

As I explain to people skeptical of ANY bitework training: the goal isn't getting the dog to bite. The goal is to ensure he STOPS--when to do it, when to stop, when NOT to do it. Right?
As I said above, I think we're in the same stream about this stuff. Best w/training.

Jeremy

[surfnplay12]

Good post Jermey I agree 100% with what you are saying. I will even go as far as to say there won't even be a psa 2 presa I just don't think it is in the cards for this breed just my opinion. I agree that control is a must with one of these dogs if not there just one big liabilty and we don't need that. About control hindering the dog I believe it can and here me out on this one I have seen goods dogs that have had real hard control put on them as in correctional OB pinch collar e collar etc and these dogs sufferd because of it.Now on the other hand I have seen postive Ob they the dogs all looked great and happy to be doing work just a total different mindset. SO I think it depends on the type of Ob and control put on the dog.

[dogger]

I'm not talking about quality of training--or lack thereof. What I've read here (and elsewhere) is people claiming that they don't want to 'ruin' or 'impede' their dog's abilities and performance by putting OB/control on them. They claim their dogs are such naturals and such balls of fire that it wouldn't be possible or fair to ruin them w/OB. A good dog is made better through clarity and control.

To what you're saying, just look at most ALL old school trainers: the dogs' OB was nervous because they'd been trained by getting smacked for making mistakes. So, yes, they performed but their actions were almost flinches: Command 'sit' and dog flinches into a sit, ducking head to miss the cuff. That's training quality and philosophy.

Best,
JN

[slamm]

Thanks for the answers, dogger.

I was just wanting clarification on those points.

I agree about the PSA-3 deal and presas, there aren't enough or any that have attained PSA-2 maybe, and darn few have the PSA-1.

Concerning this advanced training and a breed standard test. What is your opinion, is a thorough green dog test good enough for now.

Or do you feel that it should involve a minimum of passing a PSA-1 level or similiar style test or something much less "advanced" than that, but that obviously still required skilled training such as outs, sitting, healing or off leash OB.

What are your opinions on something along those lines?

Let me ask you this. I have seen your Django video with his training and skills being showcased. Was there a point (and when or what was that point?) from the time you saw that pup to now, that you figured he was/ would be breed worthy. This assumes that he would/does pass his PSA-1 this year ........... let us assume he passed the PSA-1 today for arguments sake.

Again, at what point would you have said, this Django dog/pup is breedworthy?

Did or could the breeder of your dog pick up on this as he was a pup at their home/kennel?

Or was he 3 months old?

Did he save you from a PCP criminal attack as a green dog?

Or was it after months of training, good or bad, that you decided he was a "keeper"?

For the sake of more or less objective argument here, this will require you to "brag" about your dog a little ........... I personally, will not take this in a bad way, because, I would like to hear from you (you appear to have a good dog and he appears to have good training, i.e. he is "happily" doing his "work" or "sport" whatever), and the evolution of what and how that training effected your dog and how that dog is viewed as pertaining to it's raw, genetic qualities.

My point is if I see a young or green dog, fighting hard (illegal), or catching a bad boar or bull or attacking an intruder as a green dog. I think to myself that is a good dog (genetically).

What else is causing the dog to act like this?

But if I see a dog performing good OB and bitework such as your Django, I say to myself that is a well trained dog (I mean this in no bad light about your dog's genetics).

To me it is harder to clearly see if your dog is a crapper genetically, and you have just trained the hell out of him, or if he was hell on wheels genetcially and you just "trained" some control on him.

I hope that came out right.

Sam

[dogger]

Good questions, Sam. I'm far from a trainer and NO breeder at all, so these are just my thoughts.

I don't think enough people with presas have enough true dog-sport experience to accurately judge what's required to train a dog.

A green dog test... To me, this is something to see if the dog CAN BE trained at all. A promising pup may not turn out solid. A 'drivey' seeming pup might not have the nerves or aptitude to do well in a structured training.

I get a little confused with folks who talk about 'natural' abilities. If you're trusting the dog's supposedly inherent protective traits, you're likely to have a letdown, either getting hurt, or more likely getting sued for a bad bite.

There are a number of venues that are accepted as legitimate proofs of a dog's general abilities. Yes, I'm sure there are lots of dogs that COULD do these tests but never get to see any training, or get off their yard/chain. The question is, what makes these untested dogs breedable?

I know many europeans don't title their breeding females. But these are often breeders with generations of tested and proven dogs; if the bitch doesn't prove herself, she's done. Again, I'm not really comfortable arguing the science of breeding. What I do know is that too many people in dog fancy are willing to breed because the dogs they have 'look' great. The presa is a far cry from the mal, in terms of 'trusting' genetics and bloodlines to produce something solid. Waaaay too many poor dogs getting bred out there.

As for django, Irina told me at eight weeks that he was a special boy. I didn't know enough to see how she could read a puppy, but she's generally pretty accurate about it. He was dynamite from the get go. From traveling around, doing PSA and Mondio, going to seminars, I have to say that he's easily the most agile, physically adept, clear specimen I've seen. Every non-presa trainer who's seen him has said he was the best presa they've ever seen. What made him so? Smaller in structure (sub-100#), social, drivey as fuck, athletic, strong, relatively good endurance (for the breed).

In two years, I wasn't able to find much to throw at him that put him off. Pressure, obstacles, decoy aggression, water, passive decoy... nada bothered him. My job was to channel his drives into something workable. The biggest struggle was to keep him under control when he was jacked up. Yet he's clear headed and social; right after tearing the tits off the decoy, he could play and be petted by the same helper. If the helper then re-attacked, django would nail him. Again: clarity and control.

What he offers is his drive, his stability, his socialability, his willingness to work; speed, power, size/agility.
I also worked both his parents. My biggest regret was that I wasn't able to spend more time with RS Urbo, since he was a great example of a good dog impeded by his training. I almost adopted him myself, but really wanted to try to train a puppy. Because I'd seen the parents, I had a rough idea of what might (repeat: MIGHT) come from the pairing.

What I say is a showing of genetics is to take a raw dog and, with an experienced helper, start slowly. Show him the sleeve, or a tug, or whatever. It takes some dogs a while to 'get' what's going on. Most good green presas start to get it within a couple sessions.

You couldn't do what django does with a crappy dog. That's why he looks sharp--it's a channeling or harnessing of his natural drives. Less of a dog wouldn't have it to do the OB, the focus, the bitework--and by this I mean the control. I'm always considering control: outing, heeling around a passive AND an agitating decoy, recalling past a decoy. Why? As stated before, to show that there's a difference between a freaky dog gnawing on the first thing he sees, and a trained dog. It's also largely for PR, too.

I tested the boy in enough situations, location, scenarios to feel comfortable he'd engage 'for real' but for me, I didn't want to go the PP route because he's so loaded and I live in a high-density area. Too much risk.

Honestly, Sam, I look at your dogs and would feel comfortable that you've tested them better than the majority of people who post here. I'd feel fine taking the risk with farm-tested parents--provided they're healthy and the pups are tested. It's ALL a huge crap shoot, too.

Again, I dig what you guys are doing and wish you the best. Getting w/good trainers, learning, making mistakes and improving from there--that's great for you and the breed. Most of this other highfalutin talk about tests is cringe-worthy, given how few dogs do much more than stand for photos.

CGC is a decent exercise; BST for ABs is a good challenge--WABA and IAPC both have breed tests; Dogo people have the TAN, I believe, and the upper levels of that are good tests. Sch BH or the 1. Mondio & French ring Brevets, PSA... There are lots of good opportunities to test your dogs.

Best,
J

[slamm]

As for django, Irina told me at eight weeks that he was a special boy. I didn't know enough to see how she could read a puppy, but she's generally pretty accurate about it.

Dogger and rest of the board, this is my point about a "young dog" test or breed standard test.

Irina, knew at 8 weeks ............ how did she know this???

Because she has been around enough of these dogs to have witnessed the difference in quality, she/whoever possibly performed some tests of some sort, anything to push the pups into a situations were the litter is split up into winners, "maybes" and crappers.

It is my belief that this is where the "magic" of Django (sounds gay, sorry) was witnessed. At or before 8 weeks his DNA showed Irina something, it had to, it wasn't his training, because Dogger, did that later.

So my point is this, a test could be drafted up for breeders of litters to perform at a set time or age say 8 weeks, sooner later, whatever. That would not ruin the pups but would allow good pups to showcase their good DNA to be videoed and viewed by judges, buyers or a panel of breed directors????

Being that we would be working with young, small pups, within reason, catching could be humanely included in the test, as additional testing of litters.

In my opinion, such testing of pups, is cheap, much cheaper than testing adults, it would be more standard, as no training good or bad would have yet taken place, and there are no individual, bad owners to blame for not working/testing the adults, and within reason many or the majority of the good genetics could move on, while it is hard for a "crapper" to hide, and poor specimens would be made obvious and these should be culled or at the very least netuered (that's another arguement).

I feel this test could within one generation, the next one, increase the quality of working specimens tremediously, my opinion.

No need to wait for maturity or any of the other excuses people have for not testing their breeding stocks desire to "work" or better said, genetics to work.

My opinion,

Sam

[dogger]

You can probably find twenty variations on the standard puppy tests with a quick internet search. There are ample arguments going both ways for the various standard puppy tests: unfamiliar people, strange sounds/terrain/movements, dropping/recovering, etc. Some folks now say these aren't truly accurate tests--no way to guarantee the strong pups will be good later. Others swear by them.

(I meant above that for general good-dog purposes, I'd take one of your pups, Sam. If I were looking to do sport, I'd have to examine them more closely. But, to me, your dogs have proven themselves better than most.)

I was training in the Bay Area last weekend and had the opportunity to go to the SFPD K9 unit's home. They were looking at a couple dogs of the folks I was with. They use what's considered the 'standard' service dog test (which I was unfamiliar with): dog meets another (unfixed) dog; dog walks jumps and climbs on a variety of surfaces; dog retrieves an increasingly difficult variety of objects. OB display with usual commands. Then, dog is staked out and handler leaves; dog is approached by neutral stranger who becomes hincty; dog is menaced by stranger. Then, stranger returns with sleeve behind his back, again stalks dog, does some prey moves and 'charges' offering the sleeve. Finally, the dog is menaced from afar by a suited decoy, who flees, hides behind the corner, and fires the gun when the dog approaches/engages.

These were two sport dogs, 19 & 13 months. The male had never been staked out and was VERY confused. He'd had a good deal of training for sport work, though. His OB was excellent, and, once he figured out what was expected of him, he did moderately well. Some parts spooked him--but he recovered. An unexpereinced eye would see the spooking at something unfamiliar as a reason to discontinue the dog; the trainers saw him recover and saw he had the capabilities to do well.
The female is younger, greener, but from a better breeding. She tore the roof off. Never done ANY of it but demolished the test. Truly, she's a better specimen.

One of the guys I was with is a USAF K9 handler and is part of the military's puppy program. He flies to Europe four times a year and tests hundreds of dogs. To him, this test was old hat--and much of it was irrelevant. People who sell service dogs TRAIN all these exercises--the dog gets staked out and KNOWS what's coming.

Would I cull the dog who was startled but recovered? Would I use him? Would I breed him? Damned if I know, but there really aren't as many 'truths' as people like to claim.

Best,
J

[slamm]

Some folks now say these aren't truly accurate tests--no way to guarantee the strong pups will be good later. Others swear by them.
True enough, but of these people how many were trainers and not breeders? I would say in many cases there is a vast difference in the mentality, of a breeder and a trainer, when looking at a pup/dog abilities. No difference than in horses.

Some trainers like a challenge and therefore their selection of dogs/horse reflect the lower end of the genetic barrel, others such as myself don't want to spend much time with training, I want the dog/horse to be born with the ability/heat, and I simply channel it however crudely that may happen, LOL.

How many of these people, have raised multiple litters of bull dogs and know what is to be expected of a pup at that age. I would like to see a study or case where a good pup, that was promising, as a pup, didn't grow up to be a good dog and it wasn't from bad human intervention. Simple logic would follow that this does not happen in very many cases if at all.

The mere fact that the military and law enforcement and such, place much importance on the development of pups and there test should tell most people there is something to it.

Better yet lets take it to extremes, would you want the pup that was scared of gunshots and scared of other dogs and scared of a small pig? Probably not. Because it doesn't make sense to keep something like that (in the "bulldog" world of work).

For example, if Irina saw that Django was a good pup, I assume she didn't come up with this idea because he ran from everything. So, my theory states that only you (the owner), could have messed that dog up, because genetically he was a quality pup.
Furthermore had Django, been sold to me and I parked him in a horse stall never to see the light of day, for 5 years and did nothing with him.

He would still be a "breeder" in my opinion. His genetics are still just as good after 5 years of nothing, as they are with 5 years of you training him and a PSA-3 and such under his belt, my opinion.

The only difference was the training. Further testing of Django after say 10 weeks would only really test his genetic ability to learn or be "trained" by whomever trains him, good or bad, and the quality and extent of that very training.

Well, to me I would be plenty satisfied at this point, for breeders to at the bare minimum have the "pup test" it would tell me about 80-90% of what that pup and it's litter look like genetically (when compared to other litters or known elements pits, other rough breeds, etc.)

Provided someone doesn't flatout ruin the pup, further testing of the maturing pup would only tell me the remaining 10-20% of it's abilities, and my point is testing the majority of the genetics at puppyhood is much easier, cheaper and uniform throughout the population of dogs.

My opinion,

Sam

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

I don't want to step on toes, but to me it rings of rank amateurism to claim to putting OB on a dog impedes his abilities. I've seen several 'good' mals who failed to earn the titles they 'deserve' because they were too jacked to pass OB time and again. Honestly, that's a training issue. No control, no passing score.
On the street: no control: live bites on strangers, bad press, hurt/dead people, dead/banned dogs.

I would disagree to this extent. OB is neeeded for a Protection Dog, without a doubt, but real tight ob can effect a dogs performance in a real situation, I dont want my dog checking back with me for fear of correction when He needs to react immediately to a real situation.

[surfnplay12]

Man this has turned into a great topic hats off to you fellas :ok: I would have to agree that the testing of pups could be the the most improtant and best test that can be done on a dog at any stage of life green or trained. Even a dog that has not been trained in any pp or sport has been conditoned throughout his life he has learned what can hurt him what can etc etc so in all reality he is not green he just doesn't know what a sleeve is which is another story. As pups these dog know nothing they are as green as they will ever be so to me droping a pup in with a coon or a pig at a young age and the pup willing to engage what could be perseved as a threat (because at this age any thing but mom could potentially be a threat)this show pure genetic courage and drive from a pup instincs if you will and this might be the only time you trully get to see those raw with out conditoning so yes I agree with this and think we are on the right track forsure.

[dogger]

Dennis, this is what I don't understand--and why I think it's a flawed or specious line of reasoning--why are you insisting that a well-trained dog is going to be hesitant to engage or checking back w/handler?

At the PSA Nationals, all three dogs in the 1s had superb OB and all of them react fast/furiously. I've seen three of Ivan B's last Sch/IPO-3 champion dogs: precision OB and obliterating engagement. Most of the dogs I've been lucky enough to watch and work recently (mals, mostly) are the same. No conflict, no hesitation, no checking in. To me it reads like imagined circumstances, made by people who don't really know what good OB/control are. Yes, if you beat the dog every time he errs or gets a command, you may well cause some conflict and confusion, but that's not what either of us are talking about.

Best w/training-
J

[kaner6]

Jeremy, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that an excellent dog will have no problem with the control aspect of any type of training.

I believe this all stems from one of my statements so allow me to clarify a little. Lets use the example of a dog that has been tied to a chain for two years. A good dog is a good dog. It will look excellent before any type of control (not just obedience) is put on it and will look excellent after that as well.

But I truly believe that a weaker dog wont show that tenacity that I may have before once it has been put through some higher level obedience....dumbell retrieve, outs, bark and holds, blind searches, tracking, window jumps with a retrieve. I think that is the most impressive thing about the higher level dogs....that they are able to do everything at an intense level even after having an enormous amount of control put on them.

Maybe that helps? If not, we will have to agree to disagree.


Justin

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Dennis, this is what I don't understand--and why I think it's a flawed or specious line of reasoning--why are you insisting that a well-trained dog is going to be hesitant to engage or checking back w/handler?

For PP you want a dog with a certain amount of independence to think for himself. If I correct him so that he only attacks when I put him in command. He may very well hesistate and look for me to give him the command without just engaging immediatley which would be better in a real life situation.

[slamm]

Dennis, I'm going to guess the odds of that really happening is slim to none.

Doubtful, that any highly trained dog would sit while the owner is being accosted by an wayward, urban youth.

Such a dog, exists more in theory and a few people's minds.

Granted its only videos, but every "highly" trained dog, I have seen in videos of similiar scenarios didn't need any commands to bite when the attacker actually attacked the handler. In fact the dogs reactions to the attacks were within the realm of 1/2 second or less.

Even a trained dog is no dummy, LOL.

Doubtful, even more, that any of us really need to concern ourselves with the "frustrations" of owning such a highly, trained dog. It's like talking about the PSA-3, until someone gets a "2" on a presa, we need not become overly concerned about anything regarding the "3".

My opinion,

Sam

[SteelFistVelvetGlove]

Slamm.
Ill pm you and let you know where my perspective comes from.

Which reminds me of a joke. Bill is a ranch hand at a Dude Ranch. He can string fence, he can rebuild motors, he can fix well pumps, basically He is the handyman's handyman. One day Bill has a submerged well pump in pieces spread out on a blanket. One of the visiting city slickers walks by and talks to Bill, and says "Man, Bill, you can do everything, its amazing, and I hear you only have a 3rd grade education, how is this possible? ....
Bill looks up and slowly says in his southern drawl...."Well, one thing I learned along time ago is That If Your not Educated, You better Know Something" ..

(Training/Dumb)


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