Is it just me?

[Trysh]

Is it just me or does it seem like there are more and more puppies with more and more white on them. Like on their heads and faces. In all the litters I've seen lately, they have white on their masks and top of their heads. I don't mind it and don't really care but isn't this against the breed standard. I could name all the kennels, but there aare just too many coming out with puppies with more white.

[Vulcan's Vega]

Am I correct in saying, that the main bloodline that throws these dogs with white markings on the face, etc, is Irema Curto? I notice most litters that are showing these markings have a Curto background.

I can't think of any other lines with this. Any thoughts? :cool:

[presas4me]

That is my thoughts also.....go look at some AB and pits and you will see the white collar and often a blaze down the face. White around the nose?? Is UKC/UPPCC the only registry allowing this??

[eSPO]

http://forum.elpresa.com/viewtopic.php?t=1022&highlight=white+blaze

I have a ton of pictures of dogs from various lines with white blzes. White on the face , head, feet and around the neck are allowed in the UKC standard. Perhaps the reason that you are seeing more now is because they would be considered typicali the UKC show ring.
Here is how the UKC standard reads regarding color.
COLOR
Any shade of fawn, black, and brindle in any combination of these colors. The face must have a black or dark brown mask that does not extend over the eyes, with or without a white blaze or patch on the head. Minimal white markings may appear anywhere between the chest and the throat, or on the toes,
Serious fault: Mask that extends over the eyes.
Disqualifications: Absence of dark mask, white markings covering more than 20% of the dog, coat color or pattern other than described above.

My dream is a solid Black Presa with a nice white blaze on the head and chest with four white feet and a strong working tempement.

[Tattsndogs]

in saying, that there is truly no hope for those who will destroy this breed by placing TYPE above what actually constitutes a dog? Pictures are available from up to sixty years ago, you see white blaze, black, etc. Known as traditional colors because those are the colors the dogs came in prior to show bastardization. Please explain to me, beyond frivolous ever changing show requirements, what makes such a dog inferior? I thinks its pretty funny how some person who probably never heard of these dogs till a couple years ago can simply jump on a bandwagon thats foundation is crafted from bullshit and attempt to put down sixty years of breed history. Maybe Vega you can go to Curto and tell him how clueless he really is, I am sure you would make an ass out of him in debate about this breed, :bite: plus, it would at least show you had more balls than your constitutent (presadog) and also (Vyatkin) did when they ran into him there, after years of bagging on him via the Net.

[PresaRed]

Tattsndogs, do you own a Presa? who are you? You seem to be very opinionated on the idea of a functional working Presa, and I agree with some of your points, maybe you've been posting for a while and I didn't notice but you seem to have a history with the breed, but besides your internet name I'm wondering who you are?

As far as people not confronting Curto when they had the opportunity, every first hand account I've heard from people who have tried to visit his kennel when on the island were not allowed anywhere near the place.

As far as Meredith going to talk to Curto, I'm sure if he found out that she disagreed with him on points regarding the breed he would not let her anywhere near his home.

And where are these great working black dogs?!?!?!? Espo, I'm sure if anybody you would have knowledge on this, I'm just wondering if there are any examples of a great Black working Presa (I'm talking in context of GREAT for this breed). I would certainly be interested in hearing about them.

As always, I want to make it clear that I am not bashing Curto dogs, there are quite a few Curto dogs which appear great to me, I have yet to meet one in person, so everything I have to go on is from pictures, stories etc....

Mark

[AmericanC]

The above post is the best one I have seen in a very long time! It's called having some balls!

[Trysh]

From what I've seen the dogs are supposed to have a black mask. How is it a black mask if it has white all over it? All the dogs on Curtos sight have no white on the face. By why just judge Curtos dogs. The pup from above par has what seems like a half white nose. Correct me if I am wrong. From what I know, the Majerro is shown in Presas by white feet. Atleast thats what our breeder told us.

I am here to learn more about my breed, but as I see a lot of people are confrotational. Whatever makes this board tick.

I thought we were talking about Presas, not Pitbulls.

Trysh

PS. No offense to anyone but this board is one where people are trying to better the Presa and conserve the initiall characteristics, but how is making puppies that come out with half white noses better...which above par confirmed in his post.
I dont care. Theyre all great dogs and its better to have a sound dog menally and physically but im just talking about the cosmetics.

[Vulcan's Vega]

Tatts, email me or something.. mustang_mere@hotmail.com :D

[presas4me]

There is no white on the Majoreros that I have seen; they look similar to a Dutch Shephard......dark brindle!

[josebrwn]

not sure I understand the problem?


Color

Any shade of fawn, black, and brindle in any combination of these colors. The face must have a black or dark brown mask that does not extend over the eyes, with or without a white blaze or patch on the head. Minimal white markings may appear anywhere between the chest and the throat, or on the toes,

Serious fault: Mask that extends over the eyes.

Disqualifications: Absence of dark mask, white markings covering more than 20% of the dog, coat color or pattern other than described above.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/breeds/guardiandogs/perrodepresacanario.std.shtml



BTW Trysh, how's your 140 lb. puppy doing?

[Vulcan's Vega]

"but with Jr. @ 150 lbs now & only a pup"

Since we were on the subject, I found this little quote..

Any comments on that? :D

[RuthyC3P]

Vulcan Vega:

You sure are a mouthy opinionated busy bee for being so new to the breed. :bite:

[eSPO]

Alright , enough Tit for Tat :D ! I have yet to see a 150 lb "Presa" in person, I have heard of them but never viewed one. A pup at 150,lbs I would have to see to believe. I like to strive for 125 lbs Max and below. My personal preference based on health, longevity, speed and agility.
I feel the old RSCE standard was the best in this aspect.

[Vulcan's Vega]

Ruthy, I try :D (Not really though.. heh)

I didn't know it was mandatory to be involved in this breed for a certain amount of time to have a clue!

Don't get so worked up my dear ;)

PS - I'm not trying to be sassy. I have respect for you and all others who have been involved and influential in this breed. I do tip my hat to you. I would love to meet everyone and their dogs eventually. :) Perhaps I do make people cringe, but it's not my intention. Cheers!

[Trysh]

hes 137 guy and hes not really a puppy anymore now is he. and zena from bck is supposedly 150 as the breeders say and about 4 months ago i saw a 170 presa in someones car. what r u gonna tell them. its not a presa when it has presa papers and is buit and proportianate like a presa. and guy do u really think i expected to have a 137 pnd presa in my house...i like dogs little, like my 3 pnd yorkie.

[Juan00]

I dont care. Theyre all great dogs and its better to have a sound dog menally and physically but im just talking about the cosmetics.

That's where the big problem is, IMO, in that people just breed dogs just to "see what happens" or "because I wanted the best qualities out of my male and female" or "because it was an accident" or "because I wanted a litter of all black Presas." It's almost like people think to themselves "mental and physical traits be damned, I want some puppies NOW!" It really sickens me to see this mindset so prevalent on this board.

Where is the hip and health testing before breeding? Why don't people wait until their dogs are mature? Where are the temperament tests so that you DON'T breed two dogs with bad nerves and poor working ability? It seems to me, very sadly I may add, that all of a sudden "breederitis" is running rampid in the Presa community and anyone with a female in heat and a capable male are pairing up their dogs to further diminish this breeds good attributes. Then, some people conjure up romantic tails of days long ago about how the Presa was created for this and that and how only certain lines are allowed to be called Presas...all the while still ignoring the need to produced solid nerved and good to great working specimens. Without accountability, his tragic breederitis will continue to retard the breed...but hey, they're your dogs, you can do ANYTHING you wish with them...right??????????

[RuthyC3P]

Vulcan's Vega:

Not worked up at all honey ;) Just wish you would talk to me personally before you start talking trash about KC on the other board. You don't know all the facts about her and "no" she has not been bred.

Juan, That was an excellent post. There are breeders on this forum who are very responsible with their breeding program and some who are not. Some just need to be educated on how important health and temperament is to this breed. Of course, there will always be some who just don't care and are breeding for $$$$

Here is a link to an article I found about a BYB
http://members.tripod.com/~RavenwoodDals/dearbyb.htm

[Trysh]

JUAN

I AGREE one million percent :ok:

[Vulcan's Vega]

My apologies.. you know how things get on these forums, I get too caught up in things :oops:

And that is an excellent letter. Everyone and anyone should read that..

[RuthyC3P]

:ok:

[eSPO]

It makes me laugh when people who have no knowledge of the various standards or the actual history get all excited about issues they don`t understand. It would be best to ask honest questions that comment in a negative manner.

[PresaRed]

Espo, or anybody else, I would like to see some pics or read something about some good black dogs out there?

This isn't meant as a negative comment towards anybody, it's just that in my limited experience I have yet to see any black dogs that impressed me in any way.

Mark

[Tattsndogs]

Kato was doing very well until his owner flaked and he ended up in the hands of the "little girl" in Calif., who had him put down simply to spite those who wanted better for him.

[CCpresa]

Alright , enough Tit for Tat :D ! I have yet to see a 150 lb "Presa" in person, I have heard of them but never viewed one. A pup at 150,lbs I would have to see to believe. I like to strive for 125 lbs Max and below. My personal preference based on health, longevity, speed and agility.
I feel the old RSCE standard was the best in this aspect.

Jr..which is out of TN Kobe...is 147 @ 8months. If you come to the Nationals in Texas in Oct...I will bring him out for you to see. Here are some pics to show his size right now...

http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191876

Chris

[blas_t]

Here are some pics to show his size right now...

This specimen should be neutered immediately to avoid accidental reproduction. Unless he drops 20lbs. over the next year and a half of growing and maturing, he is already dangerously too large for this breed, and reproducing dogs this large continually will destroy this breed . My male is just shy of one year, about 110lbs. and 25" at the shoulder. I have been hoping for a couple months now that his growth will slow down , so he doesnt end up to large , and out of standard.
Although there is no maximum weight according to UKC standard , this dog clearly is not what is described in the standard.
Just to be clear , this is absolutely ment in no disrespect, only my opinion on what should be perpetuated in the breed.
To the Owner and also the Breeder:
What do you think?

[presas4me]

CCPresa, no offense but your dog does look overweight in the pictures. Also, this picture seriously looks like something is wrong with his front leg the way it is bowed. Could it be from his weight?
http://www.dfwstangs.net/hosting/Mel98Z/junior1.jpg

[Trysh]

i

[CCpresa]

No offense taken. Nothing is wrong with his leg...its prob just the angle of the shot(or the fact that I was having the wrestle him into taking these pics). As for being overweight.....you would really have to see the dog in person to judge. Im sure Cedal will chime in...he has seen him in person recently.

Chris