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josebrwn
25th July 2004, 19:12
I believe that PP work is fine for sporting purposes. It tests the mind and body of a dog and the teamwork of dog and handler, as do other sports: obedience, agility, weight pull, catch work, schutzund, ring sport, mushing and dryland racing, etc. I believe in dogsports and support all of them wholeheartedly.

I believe that there are mistakes being made both in the modern incarnation of Schutzhund, and in the "Personal Protection" sports that have arisen recently, and that what we are searching for is really an ideal dog, not an ideal candidate for this activity or that. Any variation in the purpose of the dog's training, is simply that: variation in training. Specifically I do not like to see the defensive instincts deemphasized in Schutzund, and the prey instincts deemphasized in Protection work.

Looking at it historically, from the perspective of the Presa Canario, we see that the Presa descends from Los Perros Ayuda (aid dog), Sabio (wise dog), and Guerra (war dog). These were not breeds but types of dogs of largely Lebrel (greyhound), Alano (dane), and Mastin (mastiff) blood. These dogs were imported into the Canary Islands in the days of Columbus (see "Dogs of the Conquest", by John Grier and Jeanette Johnson Varner, http://forum.elpresa.com/viewtopic.php?t=1038). They either fought in open warfare or accompanied officers in the Spanish New World campaigns. These were military dogs, not PP dogs, and as such prey drive was a critical component of their character.

Later they were bred with fighting bulldogs and from this mixture the Perro de Presa (capture dog) evolved, its name coming from the introduction of bulldog blood. Sufficient for catchwork they were primarily a home, estate, and livestock guardian whose most influential selection criteria was their fighting ability. Again, prey drive is introduced and selected for. It is a natural and historical component of this breed and has been so throughout its development.

So when these sports start to devalue one or another aspect of a dog's character, it will affect the character of the breed, and this is not desirable when something is left out.

Many people abandoned Schutzhund because it favors prey drive over defensive drive, and because it encourages pattern training. I do not agree with this assessment: I believe it is not the sport but the individuals involved who are making this mistake, and the mistake is correctable.

In Barwig and Hilliard, Schutzhund: Theory and Practice, 1991, we learn that the Schutzhund is first and foremost a courageous protection dog. We also learn that almost all the training methods used in the PP sports, owe their origin to previous work in Schutzhund.

First, B&H tell us what is the Schutzhund, and what is courage:


The ideal dog possesses certain inherent qualities of character. It is a friendly, good-natured family member; an alert, courageous protector and an obedient, reliable companion.... Schutzhund is a sport whose purpose is to evaluate a dog's character by giving it work to do, and then comparing its performance with that of other dogs. In German, the word Schutzhund means literally protection dog...

The Schutzhund trial is a day-long test of character and trainability; it is an evaluation of the dog's stability, drive, and willingness. The animal must be a multitalented generalist that can, in the space of one day, compete successfully in three entirely different phases of performance: tracking, obedience and protection...

The tracking test assesses the dog's perseverance and concentration, its scenting ability and its willingness to work for its handler...

Obedience evaluates the dog's responsiveness to its handler. The obedience test involves a number of different situations in which the dog must eagerly and precisely carry out its handler's orders. It must be proficient at heeling at its handler's side, retrieving, jumping and performing a variety of skills.

The protection phase gauges the dog's courage, desire for combat, self-reliance and obedience to its handler under very exciting and difficult circumstances. This phase involves searching for and warning its handler of a hidden villain, aggressively stopping an assault on its handler and preventing the escape of the villain, among other skills..


So far, what is not to like? Here are B&H on courage:


Courage is a quality that is highly desirable in the Schutzhund dog. Dr. Bodignbauer [whose tests influenced the development of the Doberman Pinscher Temperament Evaluation Program and the the American Temperament Testing Society (ATTS), ed.] spent considerable effort in his book discussing what courage is and is not, and how it can be evaluated. First he differentiates between courage and fearlessness. He stresses that the fearless dog is not afraid. Therefore this animal will react indifferently or impassively in the face of danger because it does not recognize the danger... Bodingebauer taught that the courageous dog is fully aware that it is in danger, and that the essential quality of courage lies in the dog's willingness to confront a threat to its handler with disregard for its own safety. The courageous dog faces a threat even though retreat from the situation is possible.

In contrast to this somewhat romantic view of canine courage, we observe that Helmut Raiser, an important modern working dog theorist and trainer, defines courage simply as "a high threshold for avoidance behavior" ...



The fighting drive, de-emphasized in the modern PP sports, is brought out in the Schutzhund by the Henze courage test and the "double stimulus" test, which also breaks pattern training.



The agitator runs away quickly. As soon as he has run some fifty paces the dog is set loose and encouraged to get the fleeing man. Right before the dog reaches him, the agitator turns and threatens the dog with a stick and by yelling at it. Fighting spirit is seen in the dog that flies into the agitator without slowing down and bites as hard and as full as it can. This test is one of the integral parts of the Schutzhund examination...



And therein is the confusion between fighting spirit and prey drive, and the disservice it does to dogs when the prey drive is removed from the sport.



The final part of the courage test, which is called the "double stimulus" test, serves to unmask those dogs that bite because they have been trained to bite the sleeve rather than because they desire to protect their handler. After the dog is engaged in a fight with an agitator wearing a sleeve, the agitator then stands motionless. An unprotected assailant (no sleeve and no protective clothing to "key" the dog) then attackes the dog's handler. It is fascinating to observe whether the dog will continue to guard the agitator with the sleeve, or if it will defend its handler from attack... Interestingly enough, normally the more formal bite-work training the animal has undergone, the more preoccupied it will be with the sleeve and thus the less likely it will be to defend its handler...



So we learn that avoiding pattern training and eliminating "sleeve-happiness" is built into the Schutzhund sport, and the best training techniques, best dogs and best handlers, do not exhibit this. We see the same thing in in the section on "proofing" your training:



The final phase of training is proofing. At this level we check for understanding and increase the strength of the dog's habit by asking the animal to perform in unusual circumstances that are actually far more difficult than those it will face in a trial... once we have taught the exercises and then trained them, we take great pains to proof them in all manner of bizarre situations. We perform obedience routines in busy parking lots, run tracks with a noisy crowd of people walking along with thd dog as it works and perform hold-and-bark exercies in the beds of pickup trucks, inside houses and closes or the top of haystacks...



Again it's clear all that is said to be wrong the Schutzhund is not, it is simply errors made by competitors who have abandoned their roots and distorted the sport. In Schellenberg, TOP Working Dogs, 1994, we learn of the divide between these theories:



There are two factions in the world of Schutzhund trainers ... those who utilize the prey instinct, and those who utilize the protective instinct.

The supporters of the first group maintain that Schutzhund is a sport where techniques and not motivation is judged ... Supporters of the second group maintain that man work becomes a farce if a dog just goes for the sleeve and does not care about the person carrying it...

There is some truth to each of these claims...



Schellenberg noted that even the Schutzhund courage test can be trained for and performed, purely in prey.

I had this very conversation just yesterday, at club during a particularily difficult meeting. We were being admonished by our trainer for not bringing out our dogs and I pointed out that we cannot work our own dogs in defense and we are not strangers to our own dogs; this work must be done by our trainer. He responded that Schutzhund is all prey and has no defensive component, except possibly the courage test, late in the game. I summarized some of the points above and got some nods of agreement from several people at the meeting. Later, I was pulled aside by another trainer, familiar with K9PS and PSA, who agreed with me and offered to work with my dog.

So, I would ask the question, is not the Schutzhund dog, and the Personal Protection Dog, one and the same, and are they not best differentiated solely by their training, and not their character?

Take care,
Joe

Paul C.
26th July 2004, 01:26
Yes the dogs can be of the same character, thus the training is different. O ften many trainers proof their dogs off the sleeve in the schH sport to focus back on the unarmed agitator. So is this not the defensive drive being used or brought out in the dog ?

josebrwn
26th July 2004, 18:06
Absolutely!

I've been thinking about this question, "Schutzhund vs. Protection dog" for some time - that's why the post was so long, I wanted to sort of get it all out.

Of course the question's an oxymoron because Schutzhund literally means "protection dog", but I know when people say that they mostly mean sport vs. civil (practical). Only of course now there's PP sports, which makes it all the more confusing.

People have said to me for a few years now, Schutzhund's no good, because of this and that. But I read the books and visit clubs and I've realized there are different schools of thought in Schutzhund, and now I've seen it in person, at my own club. I'm concluding that it's the focus on style and method, versus focusing on the dog's motivation, that's the cause of people feeling this way about Schutzhund.

So it seems to me, that if a club has gone this route, that was a matter of choice. It's not built in to Schutzhund to train like that, and it's a departure from the original sport.

Really, this weekend I had a trainer look me in the eye during a meeting of our full club, and tell me point blank there is no defensive aspect to Schutzhund. I think when you start believing that way, "Schutzhund" has just become a word, it doesn't have anything left of its original meaning.

But you know when I brought up all of this at our meeting, more quickly and briefly than above, a lot of folks there agreed with me, and came up to talk with me afterwards. We're all feeling the same thing, and very important: all these other folks have German Shepherd dogs. But despite the growing sentiment that this departure from the roots of Schutzhund is due to the nature of the GSD, they are experiencing exactly what I am experiencing, that training with nothing more than toys for motivation is leaving us out. Only the dogs who absolutely LOVE toys can do well.

What I actually pointed out was, my Presa will hit the end of his line when on the pole, flip over backwards and hit it again for a toy, if I'm working with him. But if it's somebody else, he just stands there and watches them. And I can't really blame him: he doesn't know that guy.

You know what I mean?

ButchCappel
28th July 2004, 14:36
Kudos Jose, very well researched post.
First lets' remember any concept is open for interpretation, this means anything can get away from its original intent.

When I was introduced to ScH in the 70s' it was all about the "balanced dog" that has obviosuly changed. I agree that ScH is the basis for most trainers work in this country, see my post on the history of PP work in the U.S..

Most people that are into dogwork are hobbyists and as such they have to make a living, and raise a family, as well as train their dog. When they find something that works they may cling tenaciously to that system. They may never have the time to look further for another system to enhance what they have already. So a lot of people finding it easy, or safer, to do all prey work will never move from that system , and add the benefits of defense. But you cannot short them for doing only what they know. It will do no good anyway!

Just as everyone tells a potential puppy buyer "buyer beware" the same things go for your training. If you have studied and learned more, or something different, than your teacher then you should move on.
I will always look up to the early ScH people that I first learned from, without them I would have never been able to have a lifetime doing what I love the most, without their education their would NOT be a K9PS today.

So don't get frustrated get educated. Keep your excelent research up and be polite, but totally unsatified with any trainer that cannot give your
dog what YOU think it needs, after all your the one that has to live with him/her

JSF13
28th July 2004, 20:26
"...training a young dog or puppy, we must address that dog's strength, be it prey or defense. In a highly prey oriented dog with little or no defense, we concentrate on developing this strong prey response. But we must always be aware of trying to elicit the dog in defense as he matures so we can begin the channeling process. When the defense drive becomes apparent we must begin to address it so that the dog learns to work confidently in this drive. Be careful working too much and too long only in prey. You will get a false sense of security in your dog's ability to handle stressful confrontations. When he begins training and must work on new decoys in new places, he will be easy to push into avoidance, because he hasn't been taught to handle stress. New decoys and traveling will put your dog in defense. He must be confident to work there, or else you may get a big surprise during the attack on handler, or the courage test. All the bites in schutzhund are defensive bites except for the escape bite in schutzhund 2 & 3. Your schutzhund 1 routine is all defensive bites."

Jerry Bradshaw

josebrwn
29th July 2004, 16:40
Great post Joe! You should include the link too (I dug around and found it tho ;))

So anyways, some good news.. we had a "celebrity trainer" come by yesterday. This was the point of our meeting last weekend. He rapidly exposed a lot of stuff we were doing wrong and gave us a lot of plain talk that just made sense. He's coming back on a regular basis now. I didn't bring my dogs but ran the video camera and got lots of good scenes.

This was cool. There's a GSD who our trainer's had trouble with. He was explaining to our guest, "this dog just won't respond, you can't bring him out." So our guest hands him the whip, stands him in the blind and says "Ok, challenge the dog." Trainer steps out, with both the stick and whip end of the whip in his fist, and taps it against the side of the blind.

"That's not challenging the dog!!!!! Here, give me that." He steps out of the blind and Crrrrrrraaack!!!! He had that dog working hard. The guy brought out all the the dogs, most of them looked really good, and all of them did ok.

His girlfriend brought out a 10 month old Malinois that's going to Europe. He told us straight up, this is the next US champion. When you see the video, you'll believe it too.

Looking forward to some much improved training in the coming weeks!

:)

JSF13
29th July 2004, 18:26
Sorry Joe.I had already put the link in the other forum. :oops:

Glad to hear things are looking up!