Pawing sleeve/standing on sleeve

[Virtues]

I just started working my 10 month old male Presa on the sleeve. Luckily he loves it now and is just crazy about it. He keeps putting a paw on the sleeve, or trying to stand on the the sleeve and knock it out of the way. How do I keep him from doing this? An example pic (although poor) is below...

http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/v39/Virtues/pawbite.jpg

I guess I should add that this is how he comes in..high, low, doesn't matter. It's like he tries to push the sleeve out of the way, but if you "feed" the sleeve to him, he'll bite it. Is he dirty like the other dog I asked about? Any tips? Thanks!

[ButchCappel]

Virtues,
This is the kind of question that can get me in trouble not seeing it in person, but let's give it a shot.

First your description "seems" to say one thing while your photo "seems" to show something else. You say the dog is knocking the sleeve away with his feet, but in the photo the dog has a paw on the cover of the sleeve in what is usually a fighting technique for mastiffs. If they knock an enemy soldier to the ground they stand on him holding him to the ground and destroy them with their mouth head & neck. This "seems" to be what your dog is trying to do. It is one of the many natural fighting techniques that dogs use that has been almost unknown with ScH. In ScH they expect the dog to hang from the sleeve while they exhibit a few stick hits this is not a "natural" fighting style for a dog, but ScH is not a fighting certification any way.

As to the "dirty" dog post I am going to say somehting that will not make me popular with a lot of training decoys. I don't think a dog can be "dirty" when he is learning to bite. "dirty" implies to me that the dog is trying, in some way, to get around what he know how to do, sort of "cheat" the decoy. You can't cheat until you know how the game is played.

If a new dog is "begining" bite work and is not doing as we expect (here comes the part that will get me in trouble) then the decoy is not making it clear what is expected. The dog has no way of knowing what it is expected to do, unless the decoy presents it in a manner that makes it clear and rewarding to the dog.

I know the popular belief is that a "dirty"dog is "nervy" or "weak" or "badly bred", but it has been my experience that most, not all but most, of these problems stem from confusion in the initial learning process. Just as a young kid might clench his thumb inside his fingers when making a fist, until someone shows him what is more effective. That is what the trainer is responsible for, a clear system that shows the young dog the correct way fo doing what we are asking it to do.

[Virtues]

Thanks for the info Butch. I guess I didn't make it clear, that the two dogs were different. You're right, Valor is biting, but he also tries to paw and hit with his paws. Often he comes in paws first, like he's trying to flatten the person first. Is this something we should discourage? Your description of the mastiff fighting technique is exactly what he's doing. It's almost like a body block, where he would prefer to bite any available part. He'll bite the sleeve only if it's "fed" to him. Does this suggest more targeting of the sleeve, or is this newness? I know you haven't seen him and he/we are just learning. Thanks though, your input helps!