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josebrwn
28th March 2004, 23:28
When my mom was finishing law school, I was just finishing high school. She was participating in something called "moot court" where the first day you would argue one side of a moot question, say, abortion, death penalty, or how many angels can dance on a pinhead, and the next day you would have to argue the other side. She would pick my brain for ideas. So with that in mind, I want to introduce a moot question, for debate.

Question: Should you crop your Presa's ears?

I'll go first.


No! You should never crop a Presa's ears. The reasons for not doing it are morally correct, legally correct, and logically correct. The reasons for doing it, are absurd.

The first reason for cropping ears is the most absurd: the dog "looks better". This gut feeling you have when you see a photograph of a cropped versus uncropped dog, leading you to conclude without being able to exactly find the words to explain why you feel the way you do, that the cropped dog "looks better" is a result of a genetic trick being played upon you. Human beings are genetically programmed to recognize and read human faces. For the most part, only humans are capable of reading human faces. While some primates have a limited ability to read faces, the greater part of the animal kingdom is genetically developed to read body language, not faces. A good animal trainer knows this instinctively, while a bumbling novice unknowingly wastes huge amounts of energy either trying to read an animal's face, or trying to communicate with an animal with facial expressions. And this is insidious. Have you ever looked at a turtle's face, and thought you knew what the turtle was feeling? Think on that one a bit. Humans have bred dogs to appear human. Through a process called neoteny, also known as paedomorphism, dogs have developed to have infantile expressions: big eyes, wide faces. Humans too developed as paedomorphic beings: we play into adulthood, and for all our bluster we resemble infants. It is an aesthetic built into our psyche by genetics. We can see this played out in the development of modern breeds through photographs. Look at a photo of a Saint Bernard or English Mastiff 50 to 100 years ago compared to one of today. There is little resemblance, yet the standards are largely the same. This is because standards, for all the appearance of technical documents, are interpretive, and we subconsciously prefer the most paedomorphic face. We can't put words to it, we just feel it. Cropping a dogs ears makes it look more human. And this is why the dog "looks better".

The next reason, that it has some practical purpose, is laughable. Unless you dog is a pit fighter, there is absolutely no practical reason to have your dog's ears cropped. It is purely cosmetic, elective surgery, nothing more. And any argument that there is some hygenic reason to crop ears is just as ridiculous.

The last reason, that it's been done so long that the quality of the dog will be damaged by exposing the fault of ear carriage, is putting the cart before the horse, and absolutely unethical. Like it or not, if your beautiful show dog has bad ear carriage, you are committing fraud if you crop the ears. You are simply perpetuating a situation you have already agreed is wrong. The right ear carriage is a valuable selection criteria, and it is wrong to perpetuate its removal from consideration by cropping.

The reasons for not cropping: it is a painful, sometimes dangerous, absolutely unnecessary procedure, that robs the animal of it's natural state, and it is illegal in most western countries. A dogs ears are beautiful. They are a part of the dog and cutting them off is simply barbaric. If you have a dog with natural ears, you can stroke and pet their ears. A dog with natural ears is pretty up close, a dog with cropped ears has nothing but little stubs and scars. Like Gertrude Stein said of Oakland, "There's no there, there."

Ok, your turn. :)

eSPO
28th March 2004, 23:54
Each should do what they feel is best. I feel the Perro de Presa Canario looks better with cropped ears. I will crop all my dogs in the future. Its called personal preference.

JSF13
28th March 2004, 23:55
Joe I am in the midst of reading "How To Speak Dog" by Stanley Coren.One of the chapters deals with how dogs use their ears to communicate(with other dogs).It his observation that dogs with cropped ears are much more likely to encounter problems and get into fights with strange dogs due to their inablity to clearly signify their intentions through the loss of one of their main means of communication.

blas_t
29th March 2004, 00:04
Maybe a reason could be tradition?

slamm
29th March 2004, 00:23
Wow! Joe, you must have a lot of time on your hands to put that much thought into ears, LOL. In short, yes, you are correct, there isn't any real reason to crop a dogs ears. But I have never seen a presa with ears that, I didn't, personally think would have looked better without ears. What is your opinion on silicon implants, LOL?

Sam

josebrwn
29th March 2004, 01:17
Sam, having spent 24 of the last 48 hrs. driving down the highway, yea, I had some time on my hands, lol. But cropping is a pretty big subject, so's neoteny. So far we have, "just because", "tradition", and "looks better". Pretty weak you guys? Wanna concede defeat? ;)

blas_t
29th March 2004, 01:38
this is only a question, not an arguement , but do you think it could help in hearing quieter sounds? without those large flaps covering the ear canal the slightest sould vibration may be detected easier?

slamm
29th March 2004, 03:15
Joe, there isn't anything to argue about. By simple logic, you are right. But by simple logic why would anybody wear better clothes if you didn't need to, get haircuts that were just how you liked? Then there are some people that get "piercings" men and women, tatoos in all manner of places and cosmetic surgery in all manner of places. It's about looks, period, which in and of itself doesn't seem to have much merit or logic associated with it, but in reality it is a "heavy weight" in how people choose the things that enter their lives, and the things that they choose to represent themselves. So when someone who in all reality doesn't really need a presa for any logical reason gets one, at that point, I don't really see the big deal if the dog has it's ears attached or not. It's all the same, people get presa's or dogs in general that really have no business getting them based on any logical "need", it's based on a want or desire, and some dogs loose their ears for this same reason. I don't really see any moral high ground based on whether someone does or does not crop ears. In the end it's just a dog. When people loose sight of this simple fact, a lot of things get fuzzy.

Sam

josebrwn
29th March 2004, 04:35
ok I was going to let this sit a day, honestly I got the idear from Dana's clever post... but let me spill the beans.

the question is moot. it doesn't have an answer. but moot questions still get decided. they get decided in the court of public opinion, or in a court of law.

ear cropping has been decided in courts of law, decidedly against, all over the world.

if it came to pass that in your municipality there was legislation to disallow the practice, would you be able to argue against it?

I could easily argue the point from the opposite viewpoint. tradition, standards, individual liberty all could carry the day in a court of law and fallacious argument (ad hominum, emotive language, affirming the consequent) could win the day in the court of public opinion.

I guess I've wanted to illustrate for a long time that much of what is argued about on message boards is moot, and nothing is ever really resolved - eventually every argument comes down to personalities and posturing. and dogs get lost in the process.

engmastiff
29th March 2004, 04:42
Joe,

Just wanted to say I have always enjoyed reading your posts.......they are insightful

PresaRed
29th March 2004, 05:25
I just had to come to my own decision about whether or not to crop my pup Choques ears at 8 months.

I finally decided on cropping because :

A. It's a relatively easy surgery, with very little risk to the dogs health

B. I have a female who within the first two days had already started biting on the ears during rough-housing and I didn't want to have to deal with injuries to the larger ears in the future

C. I had been told by a few breeders that ears can get infected easily if they are cut on the ear flaps

D. Larger uncropped ears tend to stink more

E. Aesthetic reasons

Paolo Consolandi
29th March 2004, 06:48
I see only Todd pointed out the tradition aspect wich is quite important for me. A dog is made up of some characterics, wich found their roots in the past. Traditionally, the Presa Canario got the ears cropped because of the fightings (very different from the illegal acitivities of today based on money bet). This is an aspect wich contributes to make the history of our breed, and I think we should preserve the Presa Canario in all its aspects: history, colour coat, name, and so on.
Then, of course It's also a personal choice, even if in some cases there are countries where it is not possible to crop the ears because of specific laws.

AUSTIN
29th March 2004, 08:23
In the UK, it is illegal to crop any dog unless for medical reasons.
definatley not for cosmetic enhancement.

I personally feel that cropped pc's are much more attractive, but then I am sure my husband would like certain parts of me cosmetically enhanced. Would I be more attractive? (don't answer that)

Tradition is a good thing, we lose too much of our history due to traditions being lost.

Anyway my point is that you have a choice, we in UK don't, but then I am sure that you will all agree, that you love your cropped dogs and much as I love my croppped and uncropped pc's. I would not stop from buying a pc just because it has ears.

After all in US the choice is yours, it could be preference, tradition or just choice. What ever the reason. Just love the breed ears or not.

eSPO
29th March 2004, 16:55
I got Sancho after owning a Rottweiler. I was working 14 hour days and not home alot, we lived in a nice middle class community and crime was realtively low. With 5 children and a homemaker wife I always felt better with a good dog around. Today we hear of things like car jackings, home invasion robberies,and the druggies are more violent and daring.
They go to nicer neighborhoods than they live in to do their crimes. One of the reasons that I have my dogs is that they are deterrents. I can walk my dog through my neighborhood, do obedience with him in front of the house and he can look out the front window and bark at you when you step near my house. It is all about prevention to me. A cropped dog looks meaner,more menacing, and that is what I want. I want that potential perp to get a look at my dogs , to hear them barking, to see them on walks thrugh the neighborhood. I want the people who visit my neighbors to know about them, I want their friends to know about them too. The Cropped ears add to the mystique and say "don`t even think about it" . A cropped dog is no meaner than a non cropped dog , they just look that way, a meaner looking dog is a better deterrent and that is what I want. Everybody thinks that crime only happens to somebody else.
I am here to say nobody is 100% violence proof. I know it and I will do all I can to minimize the risk to me and my family and if that includes cropping my dogs ears , so be it.

RuthyC3P
29th March 2004, 21:05
Brick's litter mate sister has uncropped ears and the owner cut her tail off :toomad: Go figure that reasoning :confused: :confused:

johan de man
19th April 2004, 16:26
I think an uncropped presa is just as impressive as a cropped one.
Same goes for Mastino, Pit ...

johan de man
19th April 2004, 18:15
Cropping ears is banned in most European countries nowadays.
Same goes for cropping tails.

le presa
19th April 2004, 18:47
Same goes for cropping tails.


that's still alowed in Belgium untill 2006 altough I see no reason why they are more strickt on cropping ears then on cropping tails. They should have either not forbidden both or both of them at the same time.

johan de man
19th April 2004, 18:50
Ears are more sensitive than tails, that's why.

It was weird to see dobermans with cropped ears and tails and uncropped ones, standing next to eachother in Antwerp, last weekend, but I guess an uncropped doberman looks less 'dangerous' than an uncropped one.

le presa
19th April 2004, 18:56
yep, uncropped does look a lot less dangerous than those pointy ears. Many people have told me so when they saw a cropped and uncropped presa together. Maybe the anti-crop law will make people see the more 'soft' sides of certain breeds - although the position of a dogs ears has not much to do with its character :rolleyes:

TheOtherOne
3rd May 2004, 07:25
I came across a reason not to crop today.

I went out shooting today and took the dog. I guess I picked a spot a little bit too close to the lake though because there were a TON of gnats out. It got unbearable after about an hour so I packed up and left. Calida didn't seem to be bothered by them at all though and was happy the whole time because it was a new place to explore. Well, when we finally got home I noticed the inside of her ears. Nice and red from all the gnat bites. I would bet that if she still had the floppy ears they wouldn't of got to her so easy.

http://www.layitlow.com/x/Dogs/Calida-2004-05-03-Ears-Bit.jpg

eSPO
3rd May 2004, 16:07
Perhaps there is a repellent that could be applied to the ears that is safe and effective.

Virtues
3rd May 2004, 17:09
Many horse fly sprays and ointments can be used on dogs, and are usually cheaper than dog products.