Playing Presas [Archive] - ElPresa.com Forums

Virtues

23rd March 2004, 15:26

Thanks for the kind words... I just love these guys. They are not getting along. Shortly after I posted this, Valor put another scratch and hole in her head. He jumped her when she tried to go into her crate and he wanted in there at the same time. :cry: :( They can't be left alone together, and even when very carefully watched they have problems. They also play together constantly so it's frustrating when he attacks her. Hopefully they'll get along eventually.

eSPO

23rd March 2004, 16:19

Presas play pretty rough, I don`t think that you have too much to worry about. They will get along , it takes a little time. male and female is usually some rough play with an occaisional fight for food, but not a real fight, more like a growl and box snap feat for a brief time.

Virtues

23rd March 2004, 16:42

Thanks, and I'd appreciate any hints. This definitely isn't play, it's an attack. He jumps her and is hard to get off of her. He draws blood and she expresses her anals and screams in terror, usually for some time after we get him off of her. He's not like this with any other dog or cat, for that matter. We've had other dogs at the house (female and male) and he's never acted this way. Reeeallly frustrating. It's not happening as frequently now, due to how close we monitor but once in a while it seems to be going well and POW (like yesterday with the crate thing).

eSPO

23rd March 2004, 16:48

Put a prong on him, when he exhibits this behavior, a nice pop of the prong (correction) acompanoied by a a stern "
NO" and he will be over it it in no time,must do it right before he pounces or startts up. Don`t correct for play just when real aggressiveness is displayed. Presa will grab and grip and growl while they play, but if he is drawing blood that is a no no and needs to be corrected.

CCpresa

23rd March 2004, 18:31

I had something very simular happen this weekend. Jolie and Lexi where playing all afternoon.....when the got ahold of a bone. They sat and stared each other down, growling for a minute straight...when Lexi pounced on Jolie! The next thing I know, Jolie's ear is split wide open at her incision (ears got cropped last week). So I spent the rest of the day at the animal vet, with a nice bill. Anyways...Jolie is staying at my house and Lexi is taking a vaction at my moms until her ear heals. Here is a pic of Carmen and Lexi I took last night, and pic of TopNotch Jr ;)

http://www.arlingtonmotorsports.com/images/carmenlexi.jpg
http://www.arlingtonmotorsports.com/images/jr.jpg

Chris

Virtues

23rd March 2004, 19:34

It's eerie how much our two dogs look alike! Your puppy is darling!

blas_t

23rd March 2004, 19:39

just be patient , they will come around. both your older males are still pups also , so they are jealous. thing will be ok!

eSPO

23rd March 2004, 23:00

When I cropped a few of the puppies they bled form the rough play as well, freshly cropped ears bleeding because stiches are yanked out during rough play is much different than Drawing blood. You need to take decisive action before they start. Watch for positioning and staring and then intercede accordingly.

Virtues

24th March 2004, 00:20

If only I could. I am well aware of posturing, stiffening, lip curling, or growling. Valor does none of this before jumping her. He just lights into her, after playing/laying/wrestling and being near her with no problems. She gives him a look or something, I don't know. Occasionally it's over me, as he's quite overprotective of me and my space, but I watch that really carefully. We'll keep working on it before maybe trying something a little more, ah hem, shocking. Funny thing is, Villain goes right back and plays with him within an hour or two. Brave little girl, she is. Thanks for the tips. I hate not being able to let them out together or be alone together even for a few minutes. :(

SCreilly

24th March 2004, 03:02

I am not trying to criticize so I hope you do not take it that way. The animals I saw in the pics were beautiful and I am sure representative of the breed. This representation or ability may be in part reason for what we (as humans) consider bad behaivior. Since this community has an authority on subjects such as this maybe you should ask Mr. Cappel(sp). When he has time (this may be long) you might ask him to post on the different drives and other components that make all dogs tick. It helps to understand WHY our dogs are inclined to act a certain way. Lastly I would think you might want to check out some of the all breed working sites. While no one doubts Mr. Cappels(sp) ability you may want to expose yourself to other opinions and a higher rate of posting on the subject of OB.

Shawn.

PS Just so you know I have one cat, one Cocker Spaniel and one extremely(sp) dominant male Presa in a relatively small house. My wife and I were taken by suprise with how early our Presa showed dominant/agressive behaivior. We went to an excellent trainer and have achieved really good results. This has been acomplished with alot of training and very strict rules for everyone except the cat. ;)

eSPO

24th March 2004, 04:39

I had a certain litter and two dogs that stand out in my mind. At eight weeks the fights started , at ten weeks they were inseperable once they started to fight. I would yell, scream ,pick them up, pour water on them and they did not care. Devo put a four inch cut on Elijahs leg one time. It is very odd, together all day , no problems, no food or jealousy, just a signal from one and it was on. I had to throw them in the pool three or four times while they had a hold of each other, it was the only way that they would release. We tired everything and it did get better, but after the last pool toss we figured wèd just keep them apart. While the dogs developed on Tenerife were not so much geared for the fight, the dogs on
Gran Canaria were selected for this "gameness" Shawn makes a very good suggestion I am sure Butch can give you some good advice.
Typically male vs female agggresion like you are experiiecing , takes care of itself and is isolated to food and attention quarrels it will subside with familiarity and the fights will become less frequent and serious. I know the guys at the club will not tolerate dog aggresion at all and Sancho has made great progress where I thought it was near impossible.

blas_t

24th March 2004, 06:34

i am no moderator or breeder but just though i would share from my experiences. a young spoiled dog is going to be bent out of shape with a new addition to the family, these are not life threatening attacks, he just pulled a stitch from her freshly cropped ear? i dont believe male to female aggression is a common thing, anyone else want to commment?
keep a close eye on him and correct him when he gets out of line , he will learn what is right and wrong, these are well breed dogs, from temperment tested breeding stock. advice from a good trainer will help, but you know your dog, you already said he has no problem with other animals, dont stress out.

eSPO

24th March 2004, 06:41

Male to male and Female to Female aggresion are two different beasts than Male to female. Scuffles generally end up with the bitch on her back and submssion posture before anything too serious happens.(especially at these young ages) A new pup in the other dogs territory can cause jealousy but it will generally fix itself. I am speaking of male pup vs female pup encounters. It is common for young dogs to play rough and fight . this is where they learn their bite inhibition from.

Virtues

24th March 2004, 14:59

No offense taken, and everyone has room to learn. I'm quite sure it will resolve itself over time, with training, correction, and her growing up a bit. I don't know who pulled a stitch out of a pup's ear. I think that's Chris and Carmen's dog. I have to kind of agree with Todd. Valor is just now 9 months. He is going through adolescence now and is quite spoiled. He is very, very strongly bonded to me and protective of me. He wants to be "something" and he knows to pick on the pack leader (110 pound German Shepherd) would get him nearly killed (he tried that already). He's found someone he can pick on I guess. We're managing it now with careful observation and correction. They're never alone together. She's not afraid of him, and plays with him all the time. We'll definitely seek some help for him if he continues, but I see it as growing pains for Valor and a shift in the pack.

SCreilly

24th March 2004, 17:20

I would not be so sure about your decision. Agression is a serious matter, when you let it take place without SERIOUS consiquence you condone it. You need to err on the side of caution. From the previous (I re-read them) posts I can sense real concern and urgency. You clearly stated that the male has "attacked" the female. This needs to be addressed professionally. This situation has the potential to escalate and should only be judged by a QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL. I have been in a position where my dog was being outwardly agressive and was led to a great trainer. He explained what my dog was doing and why, we then proceded to lay on HEAVY OB. With all of this and training at least two times a week we still were challenged many times. Look at it this way, if I am wrong you will get more insight and training. If I am right you will get all of this and avoid a "POTENTIAL" problem. Please bring this post to the attention of Mr. Cappel, in fact I think you are both from Texas. If you are close enough you can go see him personally. "Err on the side of caution", it's the best advice I can give you.

josebrwn

24th March 2004, 17:51

hey Reilly - good post. Serious aggression needs to be handled seriously and structured training is always a good thing. I don't mean to butt in but it's easy to misconstrue what somebody posts, I've written a lot of things that sounded totally different than what I meant to say. And Larke knows dogs pretty well, she's not some "newbie" to strong dogs :P Larke is also a Certified CGC Evaluator. I just found her name on the AKC web site, query for CGC evaluators in Texas

http://www.akc.org/love/cgc/cgc_bystate.cfm

Look for "virtuekenels" - hey Larke, that isn't your email address! lol..

I think some of the Texas folks are going to be training with Butch already (is that right?) - Larke, are you thinking about that too?

eSPO

24th March 2004, 17:57

I do agree with you that a professional trainer is always best, and it is better to err on the side of caution. What I see is normal Presa behavior. When I look at the pictures I do not see all out aggresion , I see a dog doing the classic watch,stalk and pouce associated with puppy play, I think this is what she meant by " attack" ? , then some wrestling on the ground, then it escalates into harder play. Presas will play quite rough and growl. Shawn your are absolutely right , properly timed corrections and strict obedience are necessary to deal with this problem ( when it is a problem ) and it is always best not to take chances. That said, if there has been all out attacks and violence I would Run,not walk, to a trainer.

Virtues

24th March 2004, 18:18

Thanks Joe, yes I'm not new to training by any means. I have been a professional handler, taught group classes, and now teach obedience privately ($40 an hour, so at least my clients think I'm worth it!). I've been to training seminars, read numerous books, and always seek to learn more. I feel like I'm qualified enough to know when I'm over my head and will seek a trainer's advice. No, I'm not training with Butch although I'm sure he's a great person and I usually agree with his advice. I do have a PP trainer here who is very qualified that I'm going to be working with. No, it was not play, it was attacking. Yes, it's urgent, in that I love my little female and I'm frustrated with my male. No, it's not immediate danger as the severity and frequency has decreased dramatically.

eSPO

24th March 2004, 18:30

AHHHHHH ..................................... isn`t CONTEXT a wonderful thing ?

SCreilly

24th March 2004, 19:29

I agree and thanks for the kind word but I see alot of experienced people come to where I train because they are in over their heads. I am NOT saying this is the case for Larke, hell I don't even know her. The posts in this thread really concerned me because of what i have seen in the last 1-1/2 to 2 years. Seeing how fast a situation can deteriorate to a dangerous level has made me very cautious. The general attitude was one of wait and see. Later posts addressed correction but to give advice about this situation without seeing the dogs in my eyes is a mistake. To me, if she was capable of handleing this situation she would not have posted. My own personal situation was severe to say the least, we have been through alot. With alot of excellent training, time and effort we have made it. I did not have the skills to handle such a situation until I went through it. My concern is that this situation has the POTENTIAL to become ugly. My thoughts are that the pup may be the begining. When this dog hits a year of age he may be inclined to try this crap with a human being. Again, some of what makes us love our breed also has the potential to be a real challenge. Example- I love the fact that my Presa WILL defend my wife without hesitation, he will not back down. Your going to have to kill him to stop him. Great right? Not always. Try living with a cockey, dominant, defensive, socially agressive animal. These components and more make up (to varying degrees) capable guard dogs. As a guardian breed we should expect these traits, especially in a male. I do not feel it is my place to bring this post to Mr. Cappel, I honestly feel it is Larkes responsability first and formost. In her last post she stated that we will seek some help for him(the dog) if this continues. Why wait, no action costs more than wrong action. Mr. Cappel is only a post or e-mail away.

Shawn.

PS My honesty about problems with my male are meant to be an example. By admitting the challenges he has posed to us as well as my own mistakes I would hope not to see or hear this info being used against the breeder or myself. Junior is a great dog, he's just a whole lotta dog. We want to be the best owners/handlers we can become. He was more than we were ready for. But like I said, we made it.

Virtues

24th March 2004, 21:19

To me, if she was capable of handleing this situation she would not have posted.

1. I posted about my dogs playing. I added the problem with my male and female second.

2. Only a fool thinks they have all the answers.

3. I'd be remiss to let this go on without getting the opinions and input of people that have owned and bred this breed for longer than I.

4. Sometimes people just need to vent.

SCreilly

24th March 2004, 22:39

Re-read the posts I wrote and I hope you will see that I went out of my way to make myself the example. I pointed out how inexperience and not paying attention mixed with a hard dog caught us off guard. The posts were progressive in how strong I tried to make my point. Each time you posted back it came across with a wait and see or they'll work it out attitude. The earlier posts expressed concern to the point you corrected someone, letting them know that this was not play. You gave details as to the level of agression including that the female expresses her anals and screams in terror and that the males attacks draw blood. This is serious language for a serious problem. I doubt you would have used language like this without a strong conclusion unless you were unsure of the situation. Tell us that this is under control because you have a plan to ensure peace in your home. I feel I have the right to ask for some assurance because your (anyone with a Presa) actions might directly affect our collective dog owning futures. As for #2 you need to pay better attention. The only answer I offered you was Mr. Cappel. I gave my wife and myself away in consistant examples of why I felt the situation might be a real problem. In fact I went to the point of asking anyone reading to not use the info I had given in a negative way. Draw your own conclusions. This post has garnered alot more attention then you might realize, I am not the only one reading your posts with great concern. It goes further then you think. Any negative ideas about this breed affect us all. No one gives a crap about your affiliations, when the news is bad people say Presa. They do not say it was an IAPC Presa or it was a UKC Presa or a Dogo that did somthing wrong. They say Presa and that includes all Presa/Dogo owners. We must all strive to be better. If I offended you I appoligize but my love is for the breed and sometimes I can be very direct.

Shawn.

Dana PR

25th March 2004, 03:11

Here are just a few hints that you might find helpful. I have delt with the same problems and here is what I have found to work. Each dog shoud have there own kennel, crate or space. I don't allow other dogs to go into a kennel that is not his own, ever! I always feed seperately. I always have neutral toys that I bring out at play time and put away after they are done playing. I never, never, did I say never give the dogs bones or chew toys when they are together. I'm not just talking the Presa's I mean my Stafford and my mutt dog are on the same program. My Presa's are never allowed to even stiffen up when they see another dog when we are out on a walk. I make my dogs go into the down possition a lot, especailly if they are getting an attitued with another dog. If your not strong enough to make you dog stay in the down (submissive position) use a pinch collor and stand on the lead as close to the collar as you can. When I got Cassy back she was very dog aggressive and wouldn't even sniff she just would flat run and attack. I put her on a pinch collar and tied to in the down position to the bottom of a hitching post. Then I walked every dog I could get my hands on (even the neighbors dog) back and forth in front of her. She got a very hard correction even if she looked at them. This is one behavior you have to be very consistant and firm with. Never let you dog posture to another dog ever! Once they know it is not allowed they ususally won't do it. However they might try when your back it turned.

eSPO

25th March 2004, 05:29

Great post Dana ! ! ! Shawn I did some re reading myself and it does seem as if there is reason for concern. You are right when you say that this post garnered alot of attention. The idiot causing the uproar had a human aggressive dog that "didn`t like Black people" I guess that is OK ?
but to have a young Presa that is dog aggresive is sensational ? Go figure.

SCreilly

25th March 2004, 14:26

This thread has gone a little further than just that board. I would not have brought it up if thats all there was. I DO NOT want any board against board thing happening, this is not my intention. What I do want is for her to resolve the issue and get everything and more from her dogs. This can only happen with decisive action NOW. Her language grabbed my attention immediately because of my own experiences. I never gave advice other than to speak to an expert. With even a 2% chance of this worsening and speaking to Mr. Cappel free I thought "what the hell, it can't hurt". I believe it was Larke that had a problem getting land to start her kennel. It sucks that some idiot brainwashed by the media can dash her hopes because he can't think on his own. Sadly, most people fall into this catigorie(sp). We all have to be better and realize our actions can affect things in a good or bad way. I cannot stress this point enough.
Dana, the down advice is excellent. When a dog will down NO MATTER WHAT you have such a safety feature. Loose dog, dog that jumps on people or in my case a powerhouse that saw any stranger as a potential threat. The down helped my wife more but also helped me in controling him during the time we were putting the OB on him. The down is still worked regularly with different distractions, the latest one is the bite suit. This is for sport and for us a real challenge, Junior loves to get the bad guy. Again, really great advice.

Shawn

eSPO

25th March 2004, 14:54

1) We have an owner willing to share a problem
2) We have people reading a post and sharing heir thoughts based on their own experience.
3) We have people who have experienced this problem with dogs of different ages, different kinds of aggression, and different reasons for that aggression. We have people who have experienced extreme situations. We have people who have experienced it in young litters where it is observed as a 'rank behavior. I could go on a tangent here about training methods and temperment but I wont.
4) We have a situation that has progressed, not worsened.
5) I think it is a good thing for somebody to be able to post about a problem and get advice. I think it is always best to get an expert opinion.
6) I thank you all for sharing your concerns and input, if all owners were resonsible enough to bring up, and deal with problems when they manifest themselves alot fewer dogs would have to be destroyed.
7) I am confident that this situation will improve givin the resources available, the owner, and the ages of the dogs involved. Thanks to Shawn for caring enough to share his experience and thanks to everybody for sharing their opinions, this is what a community is all about.

Virtues

25th March 2004, 15:27

Dana, thank you for your advice. I've been using the down a lot for various things and it really helps. They do have seperate crates and now we crate him first which seems to help.

Everyone else... it has been FOUR days of them being together unless unsupervised with not so much as a lip curl or snarl. We're continuing to monitor the situation, but even their interactions have improved. They're doing great!

I have to admit, I will be reluctant to seek advice publically or vent my concerns as a result of certain people's actions. Please try in the future to offer concern or advice and not attack, or make one person's challenge a future concern for the breed. I assure you, that your concern is not in having me get all I can from my dogs (which I do by the way).