UPPCC Breeder Patriotic Kennels

[eSPO]

Patriotic Kennels is owned and operated by Tyson Scott . He is located in Topeka Kansas. I first met Tyson at the UPPCC Specialty in 2003. I had been promised by a friend that he would do the protection demo and have all his equipment as recently as the night before we left to Missouri. He did not show. I was in a panic. We had to ask Tyson for his help since the only other guy to fall back on was injured. Tyson was Gung Ho to help and I really appreciated it. He is a good decoy too ! Tyson recently Got Patriot certified as a bomb detection dog. Here are some picture off of his site that can be found here
http://www.tysonscott.com/patriotphoto.html
The UPPCC is proud of Tyson and his hard work with his dogs. She is an example of a functional,healthy, beautiful Perro de Presa Canario.
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/patriot1.jpg
Patriot shown at one year old
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/patriot2.jpg
Patriot successfully locating the bomb in the cabinet
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/patriot3.jpg
Patriot locating a cleverly disguised bomb
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/patriot4.jpg
Patriiot is a certified bomb detection dog ! ! Great job Tyson and Patriot ! !

Here is Patriots fathers Pedigree
http://bessie.tv/sites/pedigree/pedigree.asp?pedigreeid=566

Patriots mother is Dasia, I will see what I can find out, she is not on the database as far as I can tell.

[Jennifer089]

He is a very awesome, very intense looking dog. I would not come in his yard! :)

Congratulations to both of you.

Jennifer

[Paolo Consolandi]

wow, Dave, this is awesome! :ok:

This is what is called a "functional dog". The social image of the Presa Canario really needs these things.

We're proud he's a Presa Canario.
And we'd love to see more pictures of Patriot in action.

Here's a link to the training course he did http://www.tombrenneman.com/explosive_detection_canines.htm :ok:

[eSPO]

You may be wondering where you had seen Tyson before. Tyson is the guy catching dogs here at the 2003 UPPCC Specialty . .
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/tyson1.jpg
Tyson VS Shack
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/tyson2.jpg
Tyson VS Isis
http://bessie.tv/images/jpg/elpresa/espo/tyson3.jpg
Tysone was also a very good "drunken stranger' at the ATTS temperment test held at the 2003 UPPC Specialty specialty. I tell ya , this place was the last place that an unfriendly drunken stranger would want to be ! !
Here G`kar waits for the "threat" to get a little closer.
We need more owners and breeders to get out there and do something with their dogs. It does not have to be bomb detection, it can be obedience trials, agility,it can be weight pull, or protection work. It can Showing your dog. This breed has way too much to offer and enjoys the "work" way too much not to DO SOMETHING ! !

[Virtues]

What a great looking dog and a proud accomplishment! Thanks for sharing the pictures, that's awesome!

[eSPO]

Patriots Dam is Guardian Angels Dasia She is number 567 on the database !!
http://bessie.tv/sites/pedigree/
Type Presa Canario in the "Breed " field and type in "GA Dasia" in the "search" field and you`ll see her pedigree ! ! She was there all the time. I just misspelled her name ! ! Thanks Joe for the info !

[josebrwn]

I forgot to respond to this post, and I wanted to move it back up top. It's really nice to see all the cute puppy pictures, but I hate seeing threads like this bumped away from the front page by cute puppies.

I've always believed the Presa is a dog who can do almost everything, and it's great to see a dog proving its intelligence and abilities.

We need more breeders and dedicated owners like Tyson and Patriotic Kennels.

[eSPO]

Tyson and I talked last night and he wanted me to share the following information. Patriot has been paired with "Silk" and the litter is due Mar 29th. He is very excited about this match up. He also has a 12 week old puppy that he is laying a strong foundation for Narcotic Detection. He says he is really impressed how well the pup is doing at such a young age !
You can reach Tyson at 785-633-9862 or reach him by e-mail tysonscott@sbcglobal.net

[presagirls]

So what are the hip scores of the parents? Any temperament testing? Is this the dog with a birthdate of 12/02??

[eSPO]

Tyson is an effective decoy and student at an accomplished training facility his dogs are well respected by the staff and other students. The pictures should tell you all about the temperment of of Patriot. We are familiar with the pedigree on both sides and temperment and health has been outstanding all the way down the line. It is one advantage ,Cathy, of knowing where your dogs come from. We are preparing a formal announcement that will include the other information. Joe has requested the info before we put up the announcement, if you just have to know right now you could do something real novel ,for a change ,and call the breeder and talk to him. Tyson knows more about dogs and training than most people will in a lifetime. His work shows his dedication and purpose.

[presagirls]

I questioned it since this litter is being advertised on a PUBLIC board. I figure with the new "requirements" in effect 1/1/04 this would be standard information.

your quote Espo....

"The more people who adopt this attitude ,and preach the big four of Pedigree,Temperment,Health and Type, the better. We will see if it as a sincere claim of love for the breed or fluff to sell pups. It is one thing to get along, it is another to turn your head and look the other way when people are jumping on the bandwagon and ruining a breed."

"The pictures should tell you all about the temperment of of Patriot"

Didn't realize it is that simple to test the temperament! :(

Just asking the right questions that any potential customer should be......

[josebrwn]

I've wanted to ask this for a long time. Cathy I think Tianna's father was only 14 months old when he sired her? Unless the OFA database is incorrect, that would mean Tianna was a year old before her father got his OFA. Please correct me if I'm wrong - but I've been wanting to ask.

Another thing is, I've notice your club also has no minimum age for the temperament test, but USA, DVG, AKC, ATTS, all have minimum age requirements. That is a little strange, and I think it shows how rules are adapted to fit the club's immediate needs. UPPCC bylaws do not have a minimum breeding age, and I don't think they should. Who is to say what the magic number is? It's like the TT, you either set a number, or you don't. We do have a de facto minimum however, because all the TT requirements sets a minimum age at 18 months.

Otherwise, I think Cathy asks a legitimate question that needs to be answered. Since the bylaws were published the club has never come out with any position statement on their enforcement, nor has it communicated with the membership at large about them. It is all kept rather quiet. This makes me uncomfortable and is part of the reason, including personal issues, why I no longer operate in an official capacity for the club. I like everybody in the club, as personal friends and colleagues, but we made a deal two years ago, and I feel like the deal didn't stick. I just don't have sympathy for the professional breeder who cannot commit the resources necessary to meet these simple requirements, and I don't have sympathy with the hobby breeder who lacks the interest or dedication to learn and abide by the requirements of their club. I am not saying they are bad people or don't have my respect, but I can't be very sympathetic about objections to the bylaws.

Dave, you have not certified Playa, and you have not gotten your papers for your pups either, I happen to know that. Why then should anybody else? Yes, breeders can just get around the club and go directly to the registries. Until UKC adopts our bylaws, that's the way it is, and even then, folks can register AKC, or FIC, or whatever. That is a problem for the UPPCC, and I cannot help in solving it. But they can be effective if we all support the bylaws. This means that the only teeth to the bylaws are peer pressure, and that is what Cathy is supplying. Until the club offers it too, that's all we have.

Requirements are HARD. You cannot TT an unsocialized dog. You have to spend $100-$300 per dog for hip certification. I do not understand why anybody wouldn't do Pennhip, but that's their affair. And if you one day decide to get yourself a dog and start breeding that year, you might not be able to, because of the requirements. And this is a good thing about requirements, it slows the growth of the breed, and it puts a lot more responsibility on the breeder.

But it only means something if the support for it is unequivocal. And equivocation is all I hear lately. I cannot say I know of a single breeder who is 100% compliant at this time. Let's get an official position on this matter folks.

[presagirls]

Thanks Joe for understanding! I'm not being critical of the breeder; don't even know the answers yet, just ASKING the questions that SHOULD be asked.

Yes, Tianna's father was young (that was not in my control) and it is my understanding that he had OFA prelim xrays done. His temperament was checked and he had been shown (type). Not to point in another direction but VERY few breeders were doing any hip checks five years ago and unfortunately many today are not checking any breeding stock.

As for no minimum age requirement for IAPC temperament test that is not the only requirement for breeding; just one of many. Any dog (even ones that will not be breeders) are encouraged to take the test to test temperament. Lots of people want to continue with protection training or just put a title on their dog and it definitely shows what the dog has or does not have. There have been several young dogs that have done well.

[josebrwn]

Dave, I'm sorry I singled out Playa, and re-reading what I wrote, it doesn't read like it was in my head when I was typing it. I shouldn't have used you as an example, it came out sounding personal. Sorry.

What I MEANT to say, was that if you haven't papered the litter because of reqirements, why can anybody else paper a litter, if they haven't met the requirements?

I think our buylaws are either requirements, or they're suggestions. Now Cathy makes a good point for me, "few breeders were doing any hip checks five years ago". I think that should be kept in perspective, because it's easier to mandate a program in a club with one breeder, a lot harder with two dozen breeders and 1,400 dogs on the ground. It's like herding cats, a terribly hard job.

And what good does it do the breed if breeders just decide to be unaffiliated with any club? It's kind of a catch 22, we need to retain the breeders but keep enough pressure on them to improve their programs.

What I'd like us to do is decide what we are about. We have a lot of plans and people who are moving in the right direction and that is exciting. I just think if we cleared up this issue about the bylaws, and decided what we're doing about them, and we communicated that to the breeders and members, we'd be doing a good thing.

[eSPO]

Is that what its all about, brutal honesty ? I could be brutally honest about alot of things right now ,but ,I will be quiet for fear of the damage it would do. I will say that if we all got pissed off and resigned when something did not go our way we would not have accomplished what we have. There were two choices take a hard nose approach and eliminate breeders and sever decade long relationships by people who have been breeding for years , or take each breeder on a case by case basis and work with them. I will not publically go into all the discussion that took place but those were the two alternatives. I see things here I do not quite understand and statements that are not true. We will discuss them when the time is appropriate. Saying that not one breeder is in compliance is totally innacurate and damaging. There are over 50 Presas on the PennHip Database now, there were two not long ago. Where did they come from ? We have not done any good ? I am very confused and disappointed. My last litter was born in December, before any deadline, I don`t control estrus, and I could have rushed all my paperwork through if I was worried, in any way ,about complying. There is no excuse, I should have submitted her Xray years ago. I took it when Sancho took his and got his OFA good. Playa was too young to certify ( I was unaware of PennHip being a 98% accurate predictorat 16 weeks) but the same vet who told me Sancho would go OFA good said Playa had no problems and he was not concerend, I took this into consideration as well as the fact hat I have knowledge of sibs, parents, and grandparents who were certified by Curtos vet. with no evidence of DJD and I ran with it , I guess that if i`m going to get on a soapbox and tell everyone what should be done, I should get it done myself. Point taken. Tired and sad, I`m going to bed.

[AmericanC]

Joe, the road for club officers is to lead with out turning people away. Hard? Not realy, most people want to do the right thing, we just need a little proding and some friendly conversation about why these things are important. And they are! and most breeders know it! You should see who is doing the right thing, tell them they are doing a fine job and the ones who are not ask them why and tell them why it's important to start on the right tract. Is a time table important? Not realy, it's just better to see breeders trying to confirm to the rules in a "fair" amount of time. What is the incentive anyway? A medal? A place were a dog has done these things to tell others? Club stud dogs/bitches? ;)

[josebrwn]

Dave,

This conversation was bad timing, but it can sit here and we can revisit it.

I'm sorry and I apologize for using Playa as an example, I didn't mean to single you out or speak too frankly, I kind of thought it was an instructive situation and everything was already on the table.

The hip certification requirement is pretty easy to pass, your own vet can certify the dog. But we went with it, because it's a lot more than just about anybody else is doing. There must be fewer than a dozen clubs out there with similar requirements. Even the ABA - American Bulldog Association - the parent group behind WABA, where Iron Dog came out of, they have no requirements at all - somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. All you need to register an ABA bulldog is a pedigree. Same goes for the ADBA, the American Dog Breeders Association, a pit bull club that has some of the greatest canine athletes in the world. The UKC will adopt a breed club's bylaws but only one has ever been presented to them.

Back to Playa, and again I apologize but we're talking about this - how do you know when you met the requirements? Hips came up in the discussion, but if your vet says she has good hips, that means you already met the requirement, so then the only issue is the TT. Isn't that right? This is what I meant by an instructive example. See it's just that - we keep talking about her hips, but if that is not even what's lacking, then that means our requirements are somehow not clear enough, and how we manage them is not sound. It is not that you are doing anything wrong, it is that we as a group have failed to manage the issue. We dropped the ball and it's rolling around on the court and we're all standing around wondering who's going to pick it up.

More: Can the "dog of record" be grandfathered in? A dog like Playa threw awesome pups before the requirements started, does that mean anything when reviewing the litter? And what of any number of situations that can come up: where a litter just happens, or with a new breeder, or with an owner whose bitch suddenly turns up pregnant. Do we say, "here's the requirements, good luck in meeting them?" and send them on their way? Do we hold the registrations and give the dog time after the birth to get TT'd & hip checked? Do we turn our back? Or do we sneak them in through the back door, wink wink?

I'm being facecious but to make a point, we're not bad people, we have a problem that is not easy to solve, and we have to work on it to solve it. If we don't work on solving it, if we don't discuss it, well that's a decision too.

I'm to blame in some of this - not that this kind of situation should be personal in any way, but if a guy steps forward he ought to see things through, just not throw down the ball and walk off field. So personality does come into play in club dynamics. I am personally not suited for a lot of the things required of a club officer. I don't like talking to strangers. I have a bad temper. I want to be left alone most of the time. I have trouble not taking things personally. And that all works against the club.

There's also things I could have done and should be doing. Tom's idea is great! We should recognize and reward every effort every breeder makes in meeting the requirement. If they do one thing towards meeting a requirement, they should be given an immediate sense of reward. The internet and club newsletter are great tools for that. We could use that pedigree database as an open registry for the dogs that have met the certifications - so you can see in one place the dogs that met the requirements, or where they are in meeting them, and what their scores are. I haven't touched the database in a long time, the code hasn't changed in well over a year, it's just sitting there with no one taking care of it. Nice idea, no follow through. I need to take care of that.

There was the TT - again I worked on researching a draft of something we could adopt, and then I kind of lost interest. The test needs to be finalized and it needs an administrator to put it on the ground, right now it's a piece of paper. Now it really comes up how I had to follow through on that. We come full circle in this example - Playa. The club TT is designed to be a breed specific test, with elements modeled after the ATTS, CGC, and SchH BH traffic stability, it would be the perfect test for her, and if it were available to you she could get that done next weekend and you'd be almost through.

I say almost. There was a third requirement: DNA testing. Again, nice idea, no follow through. The test kits are like $4 or something. No big deal right? But it's just one more headache when you have to manage it.

Keeping a club managed and putting meaning to it, so it becomes more than a repository, is a lot of hard work. It is emotionally difficult to manage from within, let alone pressures from without.

We were attacked by an attache of another club who started an anonymous email campaign, sending hundreds of emails out with all kinds of bizarre claims and accusations, sending vicious emails anonymously to breeders in the club, people with beautiful, awesome dogs, calling them all kinds of names, assuming all kinds of weird ideas, attacking us for simply discussing the development of a Breed Suitability Test, when in fact there are only a few scattered clubs in the USA who conduct them, and virtually none who enforce them, even sending anonymous emails to Fred Lanting about a breeder who he knows and dogs he's judged! Then this same guy gets support from his club for doing this! That is not my idea of responsibility or honorable behavior, to support a crazy person with absurd ideas, incomplete knowledge, and a motivation that is destructive and for all purposes insane.

Somebody else from the same club asked, "why don't you just make the requirements more difficult?" Well that's pretty easy to say. Try and put it in practice. Try to manage it. Try to enforce it and still retain the breeders. Try to get them to improve their breeding programs and keep up with ever more demanding requirements, instead of just leaving the club and registering their dogs as an independent breeder.

That's the hard part, and again, a good point Tom made. What is the incentive? How to balance an incentive against a requirement? It becomes as complicated as managing a business. And that's something I have to get back to now.

TTYL..

Ps. I think Tyson and Patriotic Kennels are a great example, and his dog is everything a Presa should be.