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josebrwn
11th February 2004, 19:37
I am unsatisfied with progress we're having at SchH club in the Protection phase. OB and TR are fine, we're even setting up an Agility course, but PP isn't working out very well.

I'll have to describe, last week was a perfect example. We did some work with the puppy class, then TR, and finally PP. The trainer wanted to work the dogs on the poles. We have I can't remember, 14-16 tie-outs on either side of the field. Dog tied to each one on a lunge line, trainer goes around to each dog doing drive work.

My Presa hates this. She doesn't want to be tied to a pole and stands there looking forlorn. She will work with me, a little, but she just hates being tied to the pole. She is a weight puller and likes to hit very HARD, but you can't do that on a pole, plus the line always gets under her or wrapped around a leg, and so on. I don't know how else to put it, she hates the pole and just wants to be let off it. She couldn't care less about anything else.

So the trainer walks past her pole with a toy, she looks at him miserably and won't interact with him. I mean, she knows the guy, she knows the drill, she hates this part, "screw this", she says. So he gives her ZERO time, week after week. "Just work with her", he says.

Completely different when I'm posting her mind you, she pulls so hard to get at the toy or sleeve she chokes herself in a harness. Another thing my GSD trainer doesn't understand, "how could a dog choke in a harness?" (answer, the PP harness isn't designed for competitve weight pullers, they are a different animal).

What he does with the GSD's is a pantomime. He approaches the dog from far out, with a sleeve or toy, and whip. Dog barks. "Oooh, that's scary, I'll run away a little and hide my face. Now I'll come closer." Dog barks again. "Golly, that was really scary! I'll just edge in a little closer." Dog barks again. "Oh gosh, I sure am scared, here's a sleeve." Dog bites sleeve.

My Presa just looks at him like he's crazy.

Do I need a private trainer? We are not getting anywhere.

ButchCappel
12th February 2004, 11:01
Jose,
I am sure your trainer is doing all he can for you but he may be a little limited in his breed experiences. I think tie outs work great for a lot of herders but Mastiffs may not always respond that way. Herders or triggered by anything that moves, like a lambs leg.

Guardians are triggered by what they percieve as a threat to the family.
So I work the Mastiffs with the handler, not on a tie out. They take things much more to heart when the family is concerned. They will also be more motivated if the trainer relies less on movement and makes a few more threatening gestures, eye contact, slow stalking movements, etc.

Talk to your trainer about this and see what he will do. I try to listen to every owner because although I have been around a lot dogs I haven't been around their dog a lot. They may know some little thing I haven't seen that will make things more efficient. And even if they don't we haven't lost but a few minutes in trying.

I almost said you are always better off with a private trainer, but that is not correct. I think you are always better off with a trainer that you can communicate with, private or club.

Yes I do understand about the harness problem I use a padded collar a lot on the big dogs and some times it works better than a harness.

Glad to see you pull with your dogs, it is great for them and a lot of fun!!

presagirls
12th February 2004, 14:39
"my GSD trainer"

That is the problem most of us have had with trainers; so few understand the Presa and since they have worked with Mals and GSD they TRY to train Presas the same.....IT DOES NOT WORK! It is very difficult to find a trainer that knows what to do. I have had Tianna sit down and stare at a GSD trainer once with "what the heck are you doing jumping around with a toy, I think I'll take a nap; I'm bored.....wake me when we do something serious" look......

You need to find another trainer........

Juan00
13th February 2004, 19:07
"That is the problem most of us have had with trainers; so few understand the Presa and since they have worked with Mals and GSD they TRY to train Presas the same.....IT DOES NOT WORK! It is very difficult to find a trainer that knows what to do."

How true this is...


Jose,

You should really look into a trainer that has experience with bullbreeds. Remember, Schutzhund is a sport that was developed for German Shepards as a breed suitability test. Good luck.

josebrwn
14th February 2004, 00:24
Hey all,


Thanks for the good advice. I knew going into this it would be an uphill battle, it's hard to put into a few sentences. In one of the books I read recently they said that "other breeds" will have a time fitting into a Schutzhund club, but usually they make the most loyal and hardest working members.

The helper in our club - I just called him "our trainer" to make it less confusing, he's really just a regular guy in the club, he doesnt' hold any official position, he's just the person with the most experience as a helper. I think I was feeling a little frustrated about the pole work is all. It isn't anything more than that.

I enjoy the OB, TR, we're starting to build an Agility course, I love the puppy classes, we "advanced students" help out and it's really fun. Now we're moving into Sch I retrieves, obstacles, it goes on, I don't intend to leave by any means. I enjoy my club an awful lot, the grounds are gorgeous, the people so friendly.

I especially admire the director of our club, Phil, who is also a Pastor of a local church. I love to hear him talk, he is always inspiring, and very earthy person too, plain-talker.

I actually have been talking to him about this since I posted this message and we're going to talk about it some more. He said he'd be careful about who you train with and would only recommend a few people. I'd go along with that, for sure. He gave me some names of some pretty big names in the sport and we're going to work on this a little more.

Important thing is, to me, recognize what is not working and adjust for it. And know what your goals are, I think I'm figuring out mine.

Ps. Butch, you ever tried weight pull? I love it more every time I go. It's been really cool to put my little Presa up against the professional breeders and beat them. ;)

ButchCappel
14th February 2004, 15:45
Jose,
Just took a 2cd in the weight pulling in the Tx. Irondog a few weeks ago.
Been dabbling with it since I watched the Guiness Book of Records finals in 86 or so.
I agree, absolutely the most fun I have in dog competitions.
If you really want to see how much heart your dog has, and how hard they are willing to work just for your praise this is the discipline to try.