Rookie with Lots of Questions

[TheRupeGroup]

Hello everyone. My name is Steven Rupert and Im currently doing some research before acquiring a new dog and was drawn to the Presa Canario.

We currently have a Mastiff named Diesel. He's nearly 10 years old and is showing his age. We have 3 children (2 girls and one boy) ages 8, 10, and a handicapped son age 17.

Diesel is THEIR dog and he's great with the kids. So loving, so gentle and he loves playing with them, but again he's getting old and near the upper end of the lifespan for a Mastiff. He has been a GREAT dog for our family.

My goal is to introduce a new dog so if Diesel has to be put down it will lesson the emotional issues with my kids.

Many of you may wonder why I'm not looking at getting another Mastiff. Well there are several reasons. One is the drooling. We recently bought our dream home and it's become quite a task keeping everything clean. :)

This is my second mastiff and it seems mastiff's have a shedding problem that is causing my wife and I some turmoil as she struggles to keep Persian rugs hair free. ;)

Our first Mastiff was put down at age 7 from cancer. We got Diesel a few months after and he's been a wonderful member of the family.

In any event I have several questions about Presa's.

1.) Are they safe with children like Mastiff's are?

2.) Are they good indoor dogs or must they be kept outdoors in kennels? Note we do have 3.9 acres that Diesel get free reign on as would any new dog.

3.) Do they drool like Mastiffs?

4.) Do they shed and if so is it tolerable or an issue?

5.) How long do they live?

6.) What are some of the more common health/genetic issues?

7.) Would they interact well with a wheelchair bound child? Diesel simply loves our son and really takes watching over him seriously.

8.) What is this issue about a dogo canario (sp)?

9.) Are they readily available in the Washington DC Metro area?

10.) Any advice, comments, input, or suggestions you might give me in my search?

[azespo42]

Hello Steven, I highly recommend that you do alot of research. Good for you ! I feel that having Mastiff experience gives you some valuable experience . It is awesome that Diesel has reached a ripe old age of 10,
you must be doing something right !! I have 5 children, though I must admit they are somewhat older ! 21, 19, 17, 13 and almost 3 ! (oops) :D
I have had a dog since I was crappin my pants ! it
sounds like you have been blessed with a great family ! The biggest drag about dogs is that humans have a longer lifespan ! I wish they lived longer. Your goal of getting a Presa to fill in the gap is a good idea. Please remember that I am speaking from my experience. I lost a Rottie that I had raised from an eight week old pup,after 8 years it was a tough thing
for my family and myself. The fact that you are thinking about this situation in advance tells me that everything will be fine.
I will answer your questions based on my experience, you must remember , there are many different appearing and acting Presa`s. This is not a breed that is as consolidated as other breeds. An ideal specimen is EXCELLENT with children. They are very loyal, intuitive and alert. They are gentle and obedient and they desire to please you. They are easy to train. They would prefer to be inside with the family but they will really appreciate the room to run ! ! The only time that they drool is right after eating or drinking water or if they are watching you eat a T-bone. They do shed but it is slight and nothing like longer haired breeds. I expect 10 to 12 years from my dog, I know the ages of expiration his grandsire,granddam, and Mom. All large breeds can have incidence of Dysplasia, which is occuring in the Presa with some regularity. This issue has to do with the very foundation of the breed and ignorance of many of the early breeders. I have heard of eye problems and temperment problems but I have not experienced it them. Your son that is the wheelchair should be just fine with a Presa, that is more a result of your training and socialization of your particular puppy than a general breed characteristic. The Presa is a defensive animal and it would not tolerate aggresive behavior directed at any of his "family. There is no issue with the Dogo Canario,Poodle,Chihuahua, or any other dog. There may be some breeders in DC, if you will e-mail me I will be glad to assist you in your research. I do have some advice for you when doing your research and selecting a dog. Make sure that you Know as much about the Sire and Dam of your candidate as possible, if possible, go and visit the breeder, know the temperment of Sire and Dam. Check the pedigree and ask alot of questions. Make sure that you get a good guarantee. A breeder cannot promise you that you will not have problems, they can promise you that they will make it right if you do have experience problems due to genetic
causes. I let my owners write their own guartantee and if I feel good about it I sign it. A good breeder loves to see his products thrive with their families and would not think of depriving you of a positive experience. Take everything withj a grain of salt,use your head, and go with the puppy that jumps in your lap,unties your shoes and will not leave you alone !! Visit your breeder and select your puppy after several visits of consistant behavior by your favorite. I wish you luck in your search and if I can be of any further assistance feel free to e-mail me ! !
Good Luck !

[Jennifer089]

I just wanted to say hello and welcome.

I, like you, have a family and another dog. We have a Shar Pei who is 11 years old. I cannot speak from experience as far as owning a Presa because I am about to get my first one in a few weeks (Choya) but I can tell you a little about my research. Also like you, I wanted a dog who can just be happy to hang out with the family, go on walks and on car rides and, if I decide to do PP, pet therapy or weight pull (that one's for you, Dave ;)) will be great at it.

I read the boards, I scoured the internet, and I sent out emails to different breeders. One in particular to the gentleman who initially responded to your post. He returned my email messages right away and he called me on several occasions. I was treated well and my questions were answered honestly. He asked me questions, about my family, other pets, and my experiences with dogs.

He told me about his family and his experiences with this breed. He showed a genuine interest in who this puppy was going to and what type of life she would live. Will she be inside or out? How will you spend your time with her? What are your plans? Why do you want a Presa? Will you be willing to stay in contact with me and let me know how she's doing as she grows? I almost felt like I was being interviewed for a job! :)

In addition, he has sent me photos of her parents and siblings. He has sent me pictures of her every week since I picked her out of the litter. He has updated me constantly about her personality, the things she does that are funny and cute, on and on. He has sent me tons of information on puppy training, web sites, suggestions on how to best socialize her, etc.

Anyway, the point of all this is that if you decide this is the breed for you, pay special attention to how you are treated, how approachable a breeder is, the questions you are asked and how your questions are answered. I tend to "go with my gut" and my gut told me that I was getting this puppy from someone who knew and cared not only about the breed, but also the potential owners.

Best of luck to you,

Jennifer :)

[Paolo Consolandi]

My personal answers
Consider that I only owned a presa and therefore my experience won't be so valuable as the one that can give you other board memebers.

1) We cannot say that. It mostly depends on the individual specimen/genealogy and even more on your experience growing the puppy, introducing him to your family, educating him correctly for what concerns his behaviour and make him socialize with the world surrounding him.
But I think you do understand perfectly, as you already had Molossers.

2) For what conerns my experience, I make Tigre sleep indoor, while during the day he loves to stay in the garden, watching who is passing.
If you have a garden is better, but I do not think it is necessary.

3) Not as much as Mastiffs, for sure. I also own a Dogue de Bordeaux, besides Tigre. The DDB drools much more than Tigre.
This is not an issue for what concerns Presas.

4) This is not an issue too, as far as my experience is concerned.

5) I cannot tell with precision, but you can expect some more years that a giant breed like Mastiffs. Probably a reasonable expected living age is around 10 yrs.

6) One of the most common genetic issue for what concerns the Presa is the Hip dysplasia. For what concerns my experience, Tigre showed to be very healty till now. The few times I had to bring him to the vet were mainly for his fault...;) like the time he ate a box of Aspirinas... :eek:

7) Like #1: it mainly depends on your experience, but also on the individual specimen.

8) The issue about the Dogo Canario...Maybe you read the post by espo, he explains quite well the reasons. We want to preserve the Perro de Presa Canario in his original name and coat colours.
You see, while Dogo Canario do not have a max weight and while Dogo Canario is not accepted in black colour, we do recognize a maximim weight (57 kgs.) and the historical black coat colour, as you can read in the "news" section of El Presa.com.
The Dogo Canario is recgnized by the FCI. The Presa Canario is not, but is recognized by the UKC. Besides, officiality and shows are not fundamental things to better a breed.
We have many things in our mind to defend the name and the original characteristics of our breed.
I do not want to speak anymore in bad terms about the Dogo Canario breeders and club directors, as they do with us.
We just took a different directions.
Besides I think personal insults do not lead to anything positive.
If there is someone who has a problem, it is not us.
We will go on with our Presa Canario, they will go on with their Dogo Canario.

9) In this I cannot help you, as I am in Milan, Italy ;)
But you can check the breeders page in the El Presa.com page (even if I have to add some more kennels).

10) ask, ask, read, ask, ask, read.
If you want to read some interesting articles about the breed I suggest you to read the ones you find in the page of Irema Curto.
Then you will be free to judge.
But do not let the others judge for you.
This is the most important thing you have to remember doing your research, you will see...


Remember that here you will be always welcome and will always find some answers.


Have a nice day!

[TheRupeGroup]

Thanks everyone for the answers to my questions. If we do end up with a Presa you can be sure it'll get lots of love, attention, and socialization with the family.

I will print out the replies so I can study the answers and share them with my wife.

BTW I've been to many websites and I'm amazed at the resemblance between a Mastiff and some of the Presa's!

[Paolo Consolandi]

BTW I've been to many websites and I'm amazed at the resemblance between a Mastiff and some of the Presa's!

Well.. :rolleyes:
A Presa should not look like a Mastiff.
A Presa Canario should have a mazimum weight of 57 KGs, as it is supposed to be a functional animal, while Mastiff easily reach 80-90 Kgs.

[TheRupeGroup]

Paolo, I wouldn't consider the weight issue a comment on looks, but many pictures I've seen the Presas look like Mastiffs, to a degree, with their ears cropped.

The face is very similar.

[azespo42]

Certain lines originated with the Mastiff in one form or another, one can study the creation of the breed and see that it was a component in the construction. I have seen dogs that have a cropped mastiff look. One note, the pedigree database has random pictires of Mastiff and Presa pop up in the first window, if this is what you are seeing it is because both breeds pop up randomly depending on the frequency that their pedigrees are accessed. While there were Mastiffs used in the construction one should clearly be able to tell the difference.

[X88&94GT]

I am interested too. So i am goign to subscribe to this thread

[TheRupeGroup]

This place has really been helpful for me.

Thanks again everyone for all of the commnets.

Just a side note. Many dog people keep telling me Presas are dangerous with children and I must admit a small nagging doubt about the breed.

My misgivings have been largely dispelled by the great folks here and all the comments and evidence. I also have confidence in my abilities of training a puppy and solcializing it with the family to an extent where the dog will probably think it's human. :P

I believe in keeping the kennel crate in the bedroom at night until the dog feels secure in the home, I beleive in taking pups on car rides so they enjoy vehicles, I beleive in teaching them their ranking among the family group by the standard methods, I believe in giving a dog all the love it wants or needs.

My thought is if I do all those things as I've done before I'll have no issues to distrust a Presa with my children when I am away on a business trip.

Another friend of mine commented that Presa's are even more stubborn than a Mastiff.

Anyone willing to talk at depth with me about these two issues would greatly be appreciated.

[azespo42]

A Presa ,just like any other breed ,is a result of its genetics and its imprinting,training and socialization. A properly trained and socialized Presa with a stabble temperment will be just fine with your family. One should always supervise small children and dogs as much as possible.
It sounds like you have a handle on it. Your dog must know its position in the pack as an Omega to you and each member of your family. I would like to hear more of your "standard methods" to accomplish this,this is very helpful information and a great topic of discussion.

[TheRupeGroup]

Azespo, My "method" may be unique, but here goes. :)

For my Mastiff at an early age I had my children put him in a subordinate position then have them hold him and keep saying stay in a firm voice then pet him then let him up when WE were ready.

We did this all the time. My theory is to constantly establish in the pup's mind that he's the last pup on the totem pole/pack, but that's okay since everybody loves him. :)

I had my daughters involved in teaching all of the basic commands like sit and stay and so on from the moment we started training him

I did this every single day. I would even lay my handicapped son down and have him do the same thing.

I had my children give most of the rewards and treats and we expressed our approval in very glowing language with lots of petting and hugging.

My son, Calvin, has CP and has poor motor skills. I would lay him down on our pup Diesel and the dog would lay there. Calvin would speak to Diesel and then I'd pick my son up and make the pup stay til I was ready.

This only lasted 30 seconds or so, but if Diesel ever struggled we started over.

He caught on very quickly and I feel the constant socialization of playing with my chidren, being trained by them, being rewarded by them and fed and watered by them built very strong bonds.

I trust Diesel 100% with my children. He LOVES them

[azespo42]

Successfully raising a dominant breed in a family environment is not a
task that should be undertaken by inexperienced owners. Many dogs end up to be too much for people to handle and this is one of the reasons that you see so many of these breeds in shelters. Dogs have a pack mentality,
they are programmed ,by nature, to seek out their place,or rank in the pack. When a family takes in a puppy it is very important that that pup realizes that it is at the bottom of the ladder, the Omega, in the new pack.
A soft, cuddly , warm and fuzzy, puppy can soon become a nuisance when allowed free range in a home. No training, no correction or praise, and no time investment by the family can lead to disaster. Soft sweet caring owners are often baffled when the pup begins to growl at them when they walk by the food bowl, growl at them when they try to move him, is generally disobedient and lays in the way of major thouroughfares
of the house and makes people step over him. This becomes a problem and the once sweet little pup finds himself at the shelter because of the ignorance of his well meaning owners. In nature, it is the combination of subtle signals, behavior,and fights that leads to the Alpha emerging as the true leader . Here are some methods that a family can employ to insure that they have a positive ownership experience.
1 Always eat before your dog, if it is an inside dog , do not let it near the table and do not feed it from the table. Wait until everybody is done eating and then feed your dog. In nature the alpha eats until full and then the others are permitted.(s) 2 obedience train your dog at the earliest age, have all members of the family learn the commands. Whenever the pup is to be fed only feed it after it obeys your command
"sit" "stay" "down" whatever. In nature, the Alpha "commands" the other dogs with subtle movements,gestures and growls. 3 Do not let your dog jump on your family or visitors, the Presa does get very excited to see you and guests, but ,this behavior is unacceptable by a large ,fast , excited dog. Discourage this behavior from puppyhood by lifting your knee and pushing the dog away with it when it attempts to jump up. A few good knees to the chest will let your dog know that this will not be tolerated, if he keeps it up ,knee them harder. In nature the Alpha physically corrects the subserviant dogs .4 Always move the food dish as the puppy eats, have all members of the family move the dish, put the dish away where the dog can see you,while he is eating and then make the pup wait for a minute or two,give a command and give the food back when he obeys. I am not saying do this all the time,everyday, but do it regularly.In nature if the Alpha wants an omegas food he takes it. 5 When your dog lays in doorways or hallways do not step over it !,move it ! tell it to move or physically pick it up, make it move !! one way or another. An alpha does not move for dogs lower on the ladder. 6 Learn the correct use of a prong collar at the appropriate age, a prong is a invaluable tool to teaching the dog to heal.Learn how to correct your dog in an effective manner, have your family learn how to put on , and use the prong. Have all family members, (accompanied) walk the dog on the prong collar. I attach a leash to the prong and let my son walk the dog while I am holding another ,longer leash (just in case) . I am not say be abusive or paranoid, I am saying that by using these methods,and more, your pup will get the signal,loud and clear that he is not above anybody in the family and will be less likely to challenge them. Many people ask about letting their dog sleep with them, my take is that it is ok to let your dog sleep with you as long as he only gets on the bed when he is invited and leaves when he is told to leave and you have employed techniques
to let him know he is at the bottom of the pack. This is not everything but it gives you a brief glimpse and some ideas to help you deal with that new pup. Alpha dogs should never be adopted by inexperienced people. Start with your pup today !

[TheRupeGroup]

Great training tips. Thanks

[azespo42]

The best way to minimize the need for rescue is to prepare your owners.