At what age?

[AmericanC]

All the Vets. that I have talked to say that breeding a female Presa on her second heat is fine. Any comments? :) http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwCvBDkVDvYnALb6ZfHZ61pj1UawZVuE9P3HZKOk1G*wu1edE YUAirG6zypwDjLG2SGjEKyv3ks2j4TQGX!rxHs!EphSJT7ynBg uzM18yqw/Image059.jpg?dc=4675401424872141960

[azespo42]

The general rule is when the female is at adult height and weight.
I talked to my vet and I was told that third heat is better because the bitch may have better mothering instincts by then . Playa was bred on second heat (15 mo) and her mothering instincts were fine. She is a smaller non mastiff type Presa and she was at full height and weight. Most clubs of large breed dogs recommend two years because OFA and other health tests can be done then and some large breeds develop very slowly (Mastiff) . Some experts say breed em young,breed em back to back and retire them young to live a full pregnancy free adult life. Some say Breed only after two,never back to back and do it a max of four or five times. My personal opinion is that it depends on the specific bitch, and I like to let the dog recover from a litter so I will not ever do back to back breeding , three litters is plenty for a bitch. More importantly than second or third heat breeding is ...what health testing has been done ? what temperment testing has been done ? what is the goal of the breeder ? who will own the dogs ? what is the guaranty ? is the pedigree full of dysplastic dogs,health issues and temperment issues ? Have you seen the Sire and Dam ? are they healthy ? have you seen dogs from prior litters ? are they healthy ? Is your breeder honest with you ? do they really know the breed?

[Fred]

You asked for comments, so here's mine.

All the Vets. that I have talked to say that breeding a female Presa on her second heat is fine.

I think that's a pretty ambiguous sentence. It could mean you only talked to one vet (and I'll assume you mean animal doctor and not war veteran :) ). I talked to at least ten vets when I got my first Presa about ear cropping and not one had even heard of a Presa, but that was 3 years ago. I'm thinking you are trying to say that you have talked to more than a few vets and they were expert in the breed enough to make a blanket statement like this. Just for the hell of it, I'm taking Dart and Tursa in to the vet tomorrow anyway, I'll ask him out of the blue at what age he thinks females should be bred and see if he differentiates between breeds in his answer. I'll post his opinion under this heading.

My own opinion is much like espo's in regards to health screening. I'll ask why would a person breed a male or female without knowing (not assuming, KNOWING, based on testing/facts) that both parents are free from health defects in order to reduce the possibility of passing on hereditary defects? I don't care if you're breeding mutts. Why would you take a chance on producing pups who have a pretty good chance of inheriting a defect from parents that haven't both been tested? Bad for the dog and bad for the family who owns the dog.

Let's see, on one hand you have a group of people bashing another group who, back in the day, took a titled but dysplasiac champion and bred for type first. On the other hand you have a dog that we KNOW is too young to be tested free from CHD... I'm sorry, Tom, are we talking of a specific bitch? I don't recall you saying if it was OK to breed on the second heat knowing that defects may or may not be present, but the female is a great female already titled (or at least proven to perform) in PP and half way there in points to earning her Ch. Is this along the lines you were thinking along? Are we talking of a female that has done anything, yet?

Again, my own opinion, not based on what any nameless experts have said, is that except for your toy and min. breeds, dogs are still developing by the time their second heat comes along. They might be at adult height and weight, but they are still mentally and physically developing. Has anyone here not seen a difference in their dog's appearance at approximately 1-1/2 years to 2 years? Honestly?

And, what sense does it make to keep a dog lean when it's a puppy, but put a litter of pups in her belly when she's a juvenille?

JMHO,
Fred

[Athena]

I have talked to many other breeders of molossoid breeds and my trustworthy veterinarian, they both say that it is best to breed a female before the age of 2. I can't really explain in English but it has something to do with the fact that it would be easier to give birth, that the carrelage (or something like that) would not be fullgrown and therefore easier to get out the puppy at birth. Important to me personally is that both parents have been tested for Hip Dysplasia and that they are in good health, with good temperament, preferably to fit the standard also.

I disapprove of constantly back to back breeding. What we do now with one of our females is breed her know 8 months after her last litter (her second litter) because she had only 4 puppy's and we only want to breed 3 litters with a female. After her next litter that we are expecting (hoping to expect) in May, she will be spayed and relocated or sold to a good home. She will then be about 3,5 years old.

[azespo42]

Welcome Athena, I read a very well written article from a very succeeful lady who breeds "Champion" Retrievers. I will see if I can find it again and post it. She breeds second,fourth, and sixth heat and neuters her females. after three litters. Her "win" record is impressive. You will find a whole range of opinions on tyhis topic. You have political correctness, conventional wisdom and erring on the side of caution lined up to favor Third heat breeding in this country. In the Canaries 2nd heat breeding is very common.

[AmericanC]

Fred I didn't know that you gained all this knowledge on the Perro de Presa Canario. And no I wasn't talking specifics on anything I was talking generally. Have you produced any litters Fred? Hands on is the best not word of mouth. One thing I can say is that my dogs are very healthy, would you like to come and see them? I'm not that far. I still say that the second heat is a possibly if the bitch is healthy.

[Athena]

Welcome Athena, I read a very well written article from a very succeeful lady who breeds "Champion" Retrievers. I will see if I can find it again and post it. She breeds second,fourth, and sixth heat and neuters her females. after three litters. Her "win" record is impressive. You will find a whole range of opinions on tyhis topic. You have political correctness, conventional wisdom and erring on the side of caution lined up to favor Third heat breeding in this country. In the Canaries 2nd heat breeding is very common

The female that we bought as adult from Spain was bread there at her 2nd heat, like practically all the females I know from Spanish breeders, our last litter was also produced at the second heat. She was a bit over 16 months, prior to that age I would never breed, if she would have been in heat prior to 16 months I would have waited. The breeding policies of this retriever breeder seems to me as something I can relate to, I think this is a good breedingidea. That way the female is in perfect condition when having her litters and she can enjoy the rest of her life (which is a long life after having 3 litters on a short timeschedule) without having anymore screeming little toddlers around her :P .

But in a way it could all depend on the female in person, we have one that I will not breed prior to the age of 2 because she doesn't seem to be ready for it right now.

[Fred]

American C, I sense a tone of malice in your reply to my comments. My comments, I'll remind you, were asked for along with the comments of anyone who read your original post. I'll respond accordingly.

First off American C, it is American C now, right? You have legally changed your name to this? I read earlier today that you didn't think people should use nicknames anymore and far be it from you to be a hypocrite and use a nickname...

Anyway,

Fred I didn't know that you gained all this knowledge on the Perro de Presa Canario
All of this "knowledge" as you are calling it were my comments and opinions as I mentioned several times in my post. But, thank you for implying that in 5 years of talking and reading about this breed, that I have learned something and gained knowledge. You, let me re-type that, YOU would be truely amazed at one can learn if they can keep their fingers away from the keyboard and READ what others have to say who have been in this breed longer than you or I.



Have you produced any litters Fred?
No. Is that a requirement for owning a female and a male? I haven't produced any "accidents" either.



Hands on is the best not word of mouth.
The best what? The best way to learn something from your own mistakes? You know, I never fought in a war either, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant about them. I suppose a person could breed a litter, sit back and see what develops from that particular pairing in two years and then say he has learned something by "hands on", but I'd just as soon have the dice loaded in my favor before throwing them out on the craps table, repeatedly.

One thing I can say is that my dogs are very healthy, would you like to come and see them?
I would like to meet everyone and their dogs. If you're asking me to form an opinion on whether they produce stable healthy offspring... I would be more interested in meeting what they have produced when they have become adult dogs.

Again, these are only my comments and opinions directed to American C in a way that I felt were warranted by his reply to my original post.

I am sure if I did a little searching I could come up with a dozen countries in which it is OK to wed a 13 year old girl and start a family, but one must remember where they live and what is accepted in that country. I don't buy into the "monkey see monkey do" theory. Although, I do see some mature, debatable comments were made that could have some merit, just not by you American C.

IN MY OPINION!

Fred

[Paolo Consolandi]

I do not want to seem annoying, but I just would like to remember that personal "heated discussion" between board members should be solved by members with Private Messaging, if possible.

Thanks for understanding.

;)

[AmericanC]

I believe that my posts were not provoking. :rolleyes:

[azespo42]

One thing to keep in mind is that PennHip is a reliable indicator of
hip problems and can be done successfully at a very young age. One of the reason the 2 year minimum breeding age thing is S.O.P is the OFA method was not considered a good of indicator at a younger age. I think it is common knowledge that the second heat is breeding is common in quite a few countries. After experiencing two litters from the same bitch I can honestly say that I see no differences in the mothering instincts of Playa now or then. She recovered remarkably fast before , I wonder how her recovery time will compare this time.

[Fred]

I said I would post what my veterinarian said when asked at what age should you begin breeeding a female dog.
He said "That depends". He then went on to say that small dogs can be bred on the second heat and larger ones on the third heat unless you wait until you can OFA at 2 years. Without any input from me, he mentioned that the bones aren't done forming until 18 months, in large breed dogs, and you wouldn't want to add all that additional weight in a young female until the bones are done forming.
This is just the answer of one vet that I asked.
That is all.

Fred

[azespo42]

Did you get an opinion on back to back breeding from him ? I think it makes sense to let a dog recover before having her whelp again. I will never do back to back.

[Fred]

No I didn't, espo.
He ran through some ages comparing human years to dog years as they pertain to females and breeding (having babies) and also mentioned that the average age a dog lives to now is 14. He said that if you stop breeding a dog after its prime, around 6 or 7 it still has half its life ahead of it and would compare to a most women choosing not to get pregnant when they hit their forties.
Taking this theory one step further on my own, I suppose you could compare a back to back pregnancy in a bitch to a woman waiting 3-4 years to have another baby. Speaking strictly from an age standpoint.
If they are healthy and well cared for it sounds OK..., but morally speaking I think most people frown on it.

Fred